LH A320 rejected landing in Hamburg
#21
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Posts: 349
This site was linked in another forum that I read concerning the incident. The pictures are pretty good! The rest is in German, but I only looked at the pictures as well, so I don't think it should matter...
http://www.hamburg-airport-friends-f...tid=763&page=1
http://www.hamburg-airport-friends-f...tid=763&page=1
#22
The low wing can be done in the 747 but it isn't recommended. You get a pod strike at only 6-7 degrees and that can be difficult to judge. The autoland will do it but it is more accurate. For us mere mortals we just kick out the crab in the flare....or land sideways. Of course the airplane is designed to do it that way.
#23
Just saw this on pilot group email.
"I am actually living in Hamburg and I can tell you that the wheather is really not good. A quiet large gust took the Lufthansa before touching down, and only the left wing tip hit the ground. The winglet has been broken.
This evening it has been repaired at Lufthansa Technik (which - besides Frankfurt - eventually is also at Hamburg, lucky they were). Tomorrow the airplane is going to fly again.
That means that no wing structure has been affected.
It was the pilots decision to land, and it was his decision to go around. No controllers took any decision, they gave advices about the wheather and the landing permission.
Hamburg airport has 2 crossing runways. After this near-to-crash on runway 23 they chose runway 33 for landing, which obvoiusly was more beneficial with regard to western, north-western winds. (Why did they not choose this runway before?!)"
"I am actually living in Hamburg and I can tell you that the wheather is really not good. A quiet large gust took the Lufthansa before touching down, and only the left wing tip hit the ground. The winglet has been broken.
This evening it has been repaired at Lufthansa Technik (which - besides Frankfurt - eventually is also at Hamburg, lucky they were). Tomorrow the airplane is going to fly again.
That means that no wing structure has been affected.
It was the pilots decision to land, and it was his decision to go around. No controllers took any decision, they gave advices about the wheather and the landing permission.
Hamburg airport has 2 crossing runways. After this near-to-crash on runway 23 they chose runway 33 for landing, which obvoiusly was more beneficial with regard to western, north-western winds. (Why did they not choose this runway before?!)"
#24
On the 767 I have never seen anyone not use a normal crosswind technique. (Wing low with rudder) The only exception to this is crosswinds over 22 knots. At 22 knots crosswind it is recommended that you still use wing low with rudder but keep the nose off parallel to the centerline by a few degrees and then at touchdown bring it all the way to parallel. This should prevent a pod strike but also prevent structural damage caused by landing with a side load.
#26
Sorry, I realize it wasn't clear, but then again I don't make a living instructing. Ideally in a crosswind the airplane should be parallel to the centerline and on the centerline when it touches down. When you use the rudder to make the airplane parallel to the centerline the only way the airplane can track the centerline and thus touchdown on the centerline is to turn the ailerons into the wind which causes us to land on the upwind main gear first with that wing low. The discussion was that somehow this changes with heavy aircraft. Some people have suggested that when landing a heavy you simply plop it on the ground and then kick in some rudder. I can see some of there points: striking a wingtip or pod, loss of lift caused by blocking the relative wind from the downwind wing, etc.. However this technique has its draw backs as well, such as increase tire wear and side load landings which can collapse landing gear. In the aircraft I fly I have been instructed to land it normal in crosswind until the crosswind component reaches 22 knots. At that point the amount of aileron required to stay on the centerline track could cause the bank angle to come close to a strike. As a result you use enough rudder to bring the nose within a couple of degrees of being parallel to centerline thus the aileron required to track the centerline will not be great enough to strike something on the ground and the amount of side load on the aircraft at touchdown will not be great enough to cause any damage to the aircraft. I'm pretty sure this is directly from the Boeing 767 manual.
Other aircraft such as the DC8 with the big engines and I think B52s cannot use this technique because of the pod and or wingstrike probabilty thus the engineers designed landing gear that turn so the airplane can land not parallel to the centerline without overstressing the landing gear. I never flew either of these aircraft so maybe someone who has can chime in.
Last edited by Adolphus Coors; 03-02-2008 at 06:25 PM.
#27
Guys, Its the exact same technique as a small GA plane.
On a re-engined Diesel 8 (DC8) no so, but every other airliner YES.
Crap it in, lower the wing, add rudder. You guys do it every day
and could do it in a airliner just as easy.
IDon't let anyone tell you otherwise.
I see a lot of Airline guys never using the rudder on landing.
It's a crappy,rough landing without. I guess they think
those thingys on the floor are there just for a foot rest!
On a re-engined Diesel 8 (DC8) no so, but every other airliner YES.
Crap it in, lower the wing, add rudder. You guys do it every day
and could do it in a airliner just as easy.
IDon't let anyone tell you otherwise.
I see a lot of Airline guys never using the rudder on landing.
It's a crappy,rough landing without. I guess they think
those thingys on the floor are there just for a foot rest!
#28
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,800
Even in the CRJ-200 you can use the wing-low method - up to almost 10 degrees...There are very few aircraft out there meant to be "plopped" onto the runway in a crosswind.
But anyway, that video shows how great that "scare-bus" really is! If it 'aint Boeing, I 'aint going!
But anyway, that video shows how great that "scare-bus" really is! If it 'aint Boeing, I 'aint going!
#29
Landed with a 22 Knot crosswind in a re-engined KC-135 (almost like a DC-8) last month...right wing low, left rudder. Any stronger would have had to accept a slight side-load (bad)., but landed on centerline and still pounding my chest
#30
Like I said in the 744 it can be done but is the least favored method due to the pod strike possibility. When you kick the rudder of course you have to use some aileron, for us it just keeps the wings level. This is what I am talking about http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=766_1196775900 . The airplane is also designed to land with a side load if you need it.
So I guess the answer is that like most things it depends on the airplane.
So I guess the answer is that like most things it depends on the airplane.
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