Judge's Decision in UAL v. ALPA
#52
Line Holder
Joined APC: Feb 2009
Position: Facing forward, punching buttons
Posts: 88
we got all kinds of warnings-- letters , phone calls, emails, enotes etc.... stating th efollowing:
1. only call in sick , if your sick
2. pick up overtime-- aka junior and senior man all you can
3. Basically dont go out of your way to cause delays etc.
and my personal favorite
4. dont say anything derogatory about
A) the ruling
B) the judge
well last time i checked this is america so let me end this post byt stating the following:
the judge is a complete freaking moron, she got the ruling completely wrong and she cant make me pick up overtime and i will not do it.
she doesnt get it-- someone needs to put her on the stand and ask her how she would feel about taking a 40% pay cut, lose some vacation, work more hours, and if she was abotu to lsoe her job, if she would call in sick to find alternate employment.
shes is an embarassment to the freaking bench and should just retire
1. only call in sick , if your sick
2. pick up overtime-- aka junior and senior man all you can
3. Basically dont go out of your way to cause delays etc.
and my personal favorite
4. dont say anything derogatory about
A) the ruling
B) the judge
well last time i checked this is america so let me end this post byt stating the following:
the judge is a complete freaking moron, she got the ruling completely wrong and she cant make me pick up overtime and i will not do it.
she doesnt get it-- someone needs to put her on the stand and ask her how she would feel about taking a 40% pay cut, lose some vacation, work more hours, and if she was abotu to lsoe her job, if she would call in sick to find alternate employment.
shes is an embarassment to the freaking bench and should just retire
Your anger is based on the valid emotion of what's happening. But that don't mean crap in a court of law. Justice is blind to only the facts contained within the document.
When you set out to do something, you gotta figure all the angles. In this case the UAL guys who started this one really screwed the pooch. Not just for themselves, but anyone in the future...just like APA did a few years back.
#53
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,539
Your anger is based on the valid emotion of what's happening. But that don't mean crap in a court of law. Justice is blind to only the facts contained within the document.
When you set out to do something, you gotta figure all the angles. In this case the UAL guys who started this one really screwed the pooch. Not just for themselves, but anyone in the future...just like APA did a few years back.
When you set out to do something, you gotta figure all the angles. In this case the UAL guys who started this one really screwed the pooch. Not just for themselves, but anyone in the future...just like APA did a few years back.
#54
Nsl
Which is why we need a national ALPA seniority list. Management knows they can treat you like scum because your seniority has you trapped there. If ALPA would create a national seniority list, then you could move to another APLA (sic)carrier and not be on the bottom. ALPA has been discussing this, and now is the time for them to act.
Hypothetically, let's say Southwest joined ALPA. You get hired by SWA, and, although junior, think life looks pretty good. Growth isn't great, but there is growth...everyone else is shrinking. You figure in 10-12 years you'll be a Captain and life is grand.
Just after moving to Houston (your domicile) and buying a new house, UAL goes bankrupt and liquidates. Out of 6400 UAL pilots, 6200 are senior to you.
We can play this scenario three ways:
1. Displaced National-seniority-list pilots pick a carrier they want to go to, and that carrier must train them in the first available slot.
2. ALPA picks for them, getting a seat and pay that is comparable to what they lost.
3. They retain their national-seniority, and when Southwest hires again, a "new hire" who hasn't flown a 737 in 20 years is now the 5th-most-senior pilot at SWA.
And of course, most of those 6400 pilots would pick the airline whose future looks the rosiest...SWA. So, every new-hire who comes in steps on your cranium, and some mid-level Captains are bumped down to F/O.
And you get furloughed back to an RJ.
SWA would have to retrain every pilot hired, yet pay them for "experience" at that carrier they don't have. Sure, they may know flying...but do they know "The Company way," or the 737? Or all the Differences?
The NSL is a "nice" idea for those of us in the bottom half of airline seniority. But so is the concept of "free health care" or "making more jobs." Nice, but where's the specifics?
Unsupportable, impractical, expensive, and contrary to human nature. You'd like it if it got you a job and seniority. You'd hate it if you lost it.
#55
UAL Ruling...
Actually, her ruling was judicially correct...even if you don't like it. The ruling was pretty much boilerplate and what she said was consistent. If a group has set a precedent, intentionally or otherwise; like say volunteering for O/T or doing other things you are allowed to do in a contract, the company can argue and win the fact that in doing so, the union has implicitly agreed to allow these things to happen and the company can expect them to continue. And any attempt to stop them can be seen as a labor action. This is why anyone under a contract should always do just what the contract requires. Anything more sets the precedent for a legal challenge or gives the company leverage at the next set of negotiations.
First, regarding statistics, there is correlation (A and B moved together) and causality (A caused B to happen). Correlation is easy to show if A moved at the same time as B, then there is most likely some correlation. Causality is more difficult, it is necessary to show that B resulted from A. In order to accomplish this other factors that could cause B must be eliminated, if A is all that is left then if must have caused B. In my opinion UAL showed that there was some correlation over a broad timeframe. As the MEC worked towards contractual improvements, certain statistical values may have changed. Sick time, faigue and junior manning, among others, may have changed over the same broad time frame.
What I feel is that UAL failed to prove any amount of causality. Very simply increases in sick leave among pilot's being furloughed may have resulted from a use it or lose it mentality, more fatiguing schedules, a general lack of goodwill towards the company due to furloughs, or a perception that UAL was not bargaining in good faith regarding a Furlough Mitigation Letter. If this was a "job action" why were the statistical changes limited to the B737 and A320 FO fleets and over a relatively short time period(a few days)? Apparently ALPA only has influence over the most junior pilots.
A scary precedent has been set by this case, namely that a "Pilot Association" is now responsible for any changes in operating statistics regardless of whether they actually contributed to it. The burden of proof is on the "Association" to prove they did not cause something, not on the company to prove the "Association" caused it.
A final aspect of this case that bothers me is that it seems that the finding of "truth" in this case was determine based on a relatively insignificant issue. The determination of "truth" I saw in this case sounds something like this... "due to inconsistencies in ALPA testimony regarding who was on what committee when, ALPA is being dishonest and therefore any other evidence they offer will be viewed with skepticism".
Not trying to flame the Judge or her ruling, just expressing my opinion of the finding in this case.
WJI
Last edited by BIrwin; 03-23-2009 at 04:14 PM.
#56
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2009
Position: Sitting down and facing front in a plane
Posts: 136
Have you bothered to read the summary judgement or the court order. I have. It is a scathing indictment of ALPA. While you're at it, read the judge's affirmation of the injunction handed down by the appellate court last month. All this can be found at Information: United Airlines - ALPA Lawsuit The pilots of UAL need to wake up and see how ALPA is DESTROYING our careers. Simply reading the injunction, all the findings, and the court order will open your eyes IF you are an objective individual and a critical thinker. If not....well, you can go back to being ALPA's parrot. "Unity, Unity!"
#57
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2009
Position: 73 CA EWR
Posts: 514
A final aspect of this case that bothers me is that it seems that the finding of "truth" in this case was determine based on a relatively insignificant issue. The determination of "truth" I saw in this case sounds something like this... "due to inconsistencies in ALPA testimony regarding who was on what committee when, ALPA is being dishonest and therefore any other evidence they offer will be viewed with skepticism".
Not trying to flame the Judge or her ruling, just expressing my opinion of the finding in this case.
WJI
Not trying to flame the Judge or her ruling, just expressing my opinion of the finding in this case.
WJI
The "reel" question should be what is ALPA doing! My guess is they are busy representing themselves.
#60
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2009
Position: Sitting down and facing front in a plane
Posts: 136
It seems clear that the injunction is on the surface a victory for managements world wide, but the converse is a most interesting thought. If the pilots go into a "You pretend to pay us and we will pretend to work" mode on all levels, there is very little that they at mgt can really do about it. The conflict dynamic is limited only by the imagination, if we allow ourselves to focus on areas that are easily tracked and quantified we are doomed to lose. We are even more doomed to lose if we limit ourselves to tactics that are legal. The laws are written by politicians who are bought and paid for by the corporations and anything that really works has been outlawed a long time ago. Kudos to the UAL guys who at least tried something even if it got whacked a bit by a court..at least they tried.
Wake up! Get in the game!
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