This is true but the pilots at the majors only have themselves to blame. They are the ones that loosened scope. Even after 911 united was furloughing and they still loosened scope. nwa had pilots on furlough and they created compass. talk about dumb.

Moderator Alert - please move this thread to LCC section. Thanks

You missed the point by as much as the distance there is from the US to Lagos, the jobs at VN belong to the Nigerians and my point has nothing to do with the migration of pilots but rather the market averages. I'm sure that you have convinced yourself that supply and demand is the reason why we are the lowest paid pilots of any of the industrialized nations but the supply and demand ratios during the 60's,70's, and 80's was even worst that it is now but the salaries saw some of the biggest gains, Why?

Agreed

Everyone who gets a job is initially happy. Small units tend to be more cohesive. Irrelevant to the discussion. I think most would rather be unhappy at a stable legacy than happy at VA.

Your comments regarding UAL and their effect are valid, however what initially contributed to the BK of a number of legacies? Without a doubt, the pressure exerted by new entrants with extremely low cost structures, delayed lease payments, and sub-standard wages/benefits allowed these carriers to exert severe downward pressure with basement ticket prices on the legacies that they were not structured to counter.

Insult to injury is it was part of the models of these LCC's to undercut the legacies to the point where they planned on several failing before their costs inevitably rose as more mature carriers, by which time they'd have the market share to be sustainable.

After the beating the legacies took, to now claim that we pay more than XYZ legacy is disingenuous at best.

That's not what I said, but it's true, if someone was hired directly into the left seat at VA today, they'd make more than someone in the right seat at UA. They'd also make more if they were hired into the right seat at VA since their first year pay is more than UA. Their opportunity for advancement, (upgrade), at VA is greater and therefore would be another reason their income would be greater. Assuming you could upgrade in the same aircraft at UA in 6 years, (not likely), your pay would only be $8 more per hour than VA at the same time of service and you'd have spent 3 or 4 years more in the right seat with worse schedules.

This is all completely moot since it's not possible to get hired at United right now.

You're brilliant... (yes, that's sarcasm). And why do you think they don't need to take 30% pay cuts?

The pilot groups that caught up are: Delta, United, American, NWA, SWA, etc... Yes, they were all start-up airlines at one time and paid their pilots terribly. But over time, new pay scales and work rules were negotiated. It only took them a few decades to get them but you expect VA or whoever to accomplish this instantly or they're considered beneath you.

If AT, JB, Frnt, AW are so subpar, why aren't there numerous threads bashing them? Why single out VA? VA hasn't even had a chance to make a go of it yet and you've already decided that they'll never negotiate a better pay scale. You seem to feel that you and you're airline are entitled to everything and no-one else can compete for the business. It's ok to not like competition but be an adult about it.

I don't know, when do you think an airline should pay industry leading pay... day one? You aren't a business major are you?

You apparently don't understand the seniority system.

Easy there turbo, its just a talking point thread.

I agree, I think VX is still an LCC, albeit a growing one.

The usual irrelevant response when your talking point has been shot down hum? I see why you want to avoid the talking point, and that is!

The Virgin brand opening a company in the US and paying their pilots the lowest salary of all their companies, Why do we accept this? I personally think that you gentlemen are amongst the best aviators in the world and should be paid accordantly

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Talking point was not shot down. I gave you one explanation which you chose to ignore, that was your choice. If you would like go back and read it.

a "stable legacy" is an oxymoron in today's industry.

Sure, but an outdated business model and horrible mis-management had nothing to do with it. Of course.

Who is this "we" you refer to?