"but the supply and demand ratios during the 60's,70's, and 80's was even worst that it is now but the salaries saw some of the biggest gains, Why?"



That's because the airlines were regulated then, there was no real free market. The government decided routes and fares. When ALPA got a new contract the government approved higher fares to cover it. Carter signed the deregulation act in 1978, however, the effects weren't felt in force until the early and mid 80's. ie Continental, Eastern etc...

The only reason Virgin or any other airline can pay what they pay is there are pilots that will accept those wages. We live in a free country and hopefully still a free market, and even with the chaos that sometimes brings I would have it no other way.

Are YOU serious?

You know nothing of my friend except what I told you. He and I were elected ALPA reps together for 3 years. I saw him speaking up for the little guy and for unity. I saw him risking his job to fight for his fellow pilots.

You completely missed the point. You can't judge a man by the job he takes.

And I hate to break this to you all, but unions in this industry are becoming more and more irrelevant every day. We have transitioned to what almost every other industry has... employment at will and merit based promotion. Why do pilots think we're so special that we should have different rules apply to us? Why should we have guaranteed jobs and seniority based promotions? This is not the industry it was in 1977 anymore, and it's time we wake up and smell the coffee. Don't hate the pilots that realized that already, and now work at non-union carriers.

That is the worse thing that can happen to the airline industry. See reason below.

Because special and different rules already apply to us. How many other employees in other industries are required to be randomly drug tested. Have to repeatedly requalify to do their jobs. Are constantly recorded sitting at their desk and where anything they say can be used against them. While there are other jobs out there, if the vast majority of employees in this country were held to this standard, they would rebel.

For safety. If airlines were allowed to only promote pilots who "toed the company line," were willing to fly broken airplanes and in subpar weather, the safety record would be different. If you ever read "Flying the Line," you've either forgotten what the early days were like, or didn't really understand whay was going on.

When another airline buys you guys and staples you to the basement FO position you will see otherwise.

I don't disagree, but the point is that there isn't much we can do to stop it. Instead of burying their heads in the sand and wishing the 60s back, ALPA isn't doing much. They need to be adapting to the times.

Really?
How about truck drivers? Are they all union?
Bus drivers? Nope.
Airplane mechanics? Nope.
Delta's flight attendants? Nope.

Tell me again what makes pilots so special? And you accused ME of having a chip on my shoulder on another thread?

And how many non union airliners are falling out of the sky worldwide? YGBKM!

I have read both volumes of Flying the Line. This is not that era anymore! Put down the Kool Aid and realize that times have changed, and we need to adapt to the new reality, not continue to stand firm in the face of a tidal wave coming. Open skies changed EVERYTHING and Virgin America is the tip of the spear. If the US pilot groups don't change now and get together with management to fight it, we will be extinct in 20 years. The US airline industry will be like what the shipping industry is.

Sure, "stable" is relative nowadays, however I'll take CAL, NWA/DAL, UPS, FDX over VA, AT, JB any day. Of course the best airline to work for is the one that hires you - until the next better one does.

And my take is the LCC model is flawed as a long term going concern - it's in and out, big bucks for a few investors, and leave the industry a worst place in it's aftermath. The "I've got mine" vitriol should be saved for the charlatans who conceive these outfits - they are the only ones who remotely win. LCC's are the hedge funds of the airline biz.

As to the "we" I was referring to are the collective rationalization of pilots at these LCC's, whose willingness to work for lower than standard wages helped lower the bar, now crow "we pay just as much as UAL", etc.

Thank you for the unnecessary history lesson since I was working for the airlines back in those days, where you? at $100/h VA pilots are making less than what LAN Peru (a lesser paid subsidiary of LAN Chile) pay their a320 captains (if you count the fact that their company pay for their taxes) "free market" and "supply and demand" doesn't answer why we in the US are accepting salary rates lower than what an airline in a third world country is paying their pilots.

I haven't heard anyone at an LCC "crow" that they pay as much as UAL, have you?

I notice you didn't mention UAL.

Yeah, Southwest probably isn't here to stay.

define "standard wages".

Sadly, UAL may very well go out of business.

SWA is the one aberration to the LCC model. If it was so easy and that was all there was to it why aren't there a bunch of long term SWA clones out there? Other than SWA how many of the other LCC models since deregulation are still in business?