DAL In-House Union?
02-17-2009 | 07:04 AM
#81
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 20,877
Likes: 193
Everyone making posts about one contract for all pilots and combining negotiations for all pilots needs to read the Railway Labor Act. It was conceived and put into law to prevent exactly what the posters want. The first step before anything else can be accomplished needs to be a repeal of the RLA. Absent that all the rest is fantasy.
02-17-2009 | 12:31 PM
#85
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 474
Likes: 0
From: 73N CA
Your posts have gotten under my skin and I am partly giving in to the urge to lash out. Self control is a good thing. Don't take it so personally.
I am also guessing that you never worked at a regional and probably came out of the military straight to DAL. You probably also fly in the reserve during your generous mainline time off. What's your point? I use my time off to do other things to maintain a certain quality of life. I've spent years away from my family and friends while on active duty in the military, and I did go straight from the military to a major. What's your point? You think I should've started at a regional? And I did work at a regional. I worked the ramp while paying my way through college.
Perhaps we should have a separate union for Captains and First Officers. Why should I pay dues to a union that does not completely focus on my situation dealing with the weighty burdens of command? This is part of what I was saying. We both pay dues to the same organization and they don't focus solely on either one of our situations. Our MECs are supposed to do that, but our situations are quite different. It doesn't make sense for the two of us to belong to the same union. ALPA national does much good in the political and safety side of the house, but they can't support both of us on the line type of issues at the same time. I don't want a union that isn't solely looking after the interest of my workforce.
So you are not a socialist? Neither am I, and I do not believe that I have even met one. Try to expand your thinking beyond sound bites that can fit on a bumper sticker. Our country is in economic crisis mainly due to the evisceration of regulatory oversight of our financial system. Solutions are discussed and hammered out, and all the far right can do is cry "socialism". No new ideas, just the tired old ones that got us here. Rhino Driver, you are probably going to be totally urinary when national health care is created. Go to Europe, even Canada and take a look at "how good" national health care really is. It's miserable. It's a beauracratic nightmare. We have the greatest healthcare system in the world. I'm not saying it's perfect, because it isn't and there is definitely room for improvement. Maybe our system wouldn't be so messed up if we didn't fund the entire immigrant population or the masses that flee their own country's "National Heathcare System" for care in the US. My better half works in the healthcare industry. We treat anyone and everyone. No person in need is ever turned away from the ER and there TONS of free clinics that our system already funds and has funded forever. She just recently was involved in a case where a woman from Nigeria, Nigerian citizen, doesn't even live or work in the US, and your tax dollars just paid to support the final 3 months of her pregnancy and her delivery. Oh, by the way, that kid is now a US citizen. If that isn't incredibly stupid and unbelievable, I don't know what is. And Obama just signed into law the biggest spending bill ever. Oh well, everyone deserves this. Tax payer or not, I'm entitled. Insanity!
It all comes down to two basic attitudes. Preserve my immediate situation and screw the new hires, the regional pilots, and anyone else. Or else work to raise the floor of our profession while improving the pay and work rules at the top tier. These goals are not mutually exclusive. The most effective strategy for long term gains for everyone and the health of our profession is closer links between pilot groups and contracts covering more than one company. I'm really not for "screwing" anyone else in this industry. I've said it before that I would do anything I could to help out another pilot in need or help someone achieve their career objectives. I just think the Regionals have gotten too large and are now flying routes and aircraft that belong to mainline carriers. The regionals are a necessity and they fill a need to both the company and to pilots trying to climb their way up the ladder. I do not support stapling, same unions, pay parity, or anything else that brings the regional level up to that of mainline. In my opinion, a regional shouldn't be a career. It's a stepping stone and if you decide to stay there, that's your business. I don't really care. But don't expect help from me when it comes to increasing YOUR QOL. We have our own issues and are trying to make life better for us and YOU down the road.
I am also guessing that you never worked at a regional and probably came out of the military straight to DAL. You probably also fly in the reserve during your generous mainline time off. What's your point? I use my time off to do other things to maintain a certain quality of life. I've spent years away from my family and friends while on active duty in the military, and I did go straight from the military to a major. What's your point? You think I should've started at a regional? And I did work at a regional. I worked the ramp while paying my way through college.
Perhaps we should have a separate union for Captains and First Officers. Why should I pay dues to a union that does not completely focus on my situation dealing with the weighty burdens of command? This is part of what I was saying. We both pay dues to the same organization and they don't focus solely on either one of our situations. Our MECs are supposed to do that, but our situations are quite different. It doesn't make sense for the two of us to belong to the same union. ALPA national does much good in the political and safety side of the house, but they can't support both of us on the line type of issues at the same time. I don't want a union that isn't solely looking after the interest of my workforce.
So you are not a socialist? Neither am I, and I do not believe that I have even met one. Try to expand your thinking beyond sound bites that can fit on a bumper sticker. Our country is in economic crisis mainly due to the evisceration of regulatory oversight of our financial system. Solutions are discussed and hammered out, and all the far right can do is cry "socialism". No new ideas, just the tired old ones that got us here. Rhino Driver, you are probably going to be totally urinary when national health care is created. Go to Europe, even Canada and take a look at "how good" national health care really is. It's miserable. It's a beauracratic nightmare. We have the greatest healthcare system in the world. I'm not saying it's perfect, because it isn't and there is definitely room for improvement. Maybe our system wouldn't be so messed up if we didn't fund the entire immigrant population or the masses that flee their own country's "National Heathcare System" for care in the US. My better half works in the healthcare industry. We treat anyone and everyone. No person in need is ever turned away from the ER and there TONS of free clinics that our system already funds and has funded forever. She just recently was involved in a case where a woman from Nigeria, Nigerian citizen, doesn't even live or work in the US, and your tax dollars just paid to support the final 3 months of her pregnancy and her delivery. Oh, by the way, that kid is now a US citizen. If that isn't incredibly stupid and unbelievable, I don't know what is. And Obama just signed into law the biggest spending bill ever. Oh well, everyone deserves this. Tax payer or not, I'm entitled. Insanity!
It all comes down to two basic attitudes. Preserve my immediate situation and screw the new hires, the regional pilots, and anyone else. Or else work to raise the floor of our profession while improving the pay and work rules at the top tier. These goals are not mutually exclusive. The most effective strategy for long term gains for everyone and the health of our profession is closer links between pilot groups and contracts covering more than one company. I'm really not for "screwing" anyone else in this industry. I've said it before that I would do anything I could to help out another pilot in need or help someone achieve their career objectives. I just think the Regionals have gotten too large and are now flying routes and aircraft that belong to mainline carriers. The regionals are a necessity and they fill a need to both the company and to pilots trying to climb their way up the ladder. I do not support stapling, same unions, pay parity, or anything else that brings the regional level up to that of mainline. In my opinion, a regional shouldn't be a career. It's a stepping stone and if you decide to stay there, that's your business. I don't really care. But don't expect help from me when it comes to increasing YOUR QOL. We have our own issues and are trying to make life better for us and YOU down the road.
Get the regionals together and get pay parity, QOL, etc. as a group amoungst yourselves. There's a fight brewing within this industy, and we're coming to get our jobs, aircraft, and routes back that belong at mainline. It's nothing against you, and it's nothing personal, but enough is enough. This will make this profession, as a whole, better. To increase the quality of life, pay, work rules, job security, everything better in the long run. Better for everyone because most of those at the regionals are trying to get here and in the end, it will be better for all of us.
02-17-2009 | 10:53 PM
#86
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 305
Likes: 0
From: DHC-8 CA Furloughed
Rhinodriver said:
I've spent years away from my family and friends while on active duty in the military, and I did go straight from the military to a major. What's your point? You think I should've started at a regional?
Maybe. I do not think that all military flying has a direct relationship to airline flying. I do not think that all military pilots are better prepared than I to work at a major airline. Flying a single seat fighter or attack aircraft relates to airline flying about the same as piloting an LCAC. I was in the military. I too spent time away from friends and family. My service was in the enlisted ranks and therefore is of little use in getting hired by a major airline. If the majors want to give preference to veterans, then make it apply to all veterans.
ALPA national does much good in the political and safety side of the house, but they can't support both of us on the line type of issues at the same time. I don't want a union that isn't solely looking after the interest of my workforce.
I got it. You are putting the “I” back in union. I think you make too much of the “differences” between mainline and regional flying. Both involve complex aircraft under Part 121 rules. The only differences are aircraft size (and that is narrowing by the day), pay, and work rules.
Go to Europe, even Canada and take a look at "how good" national health care really is. It's miserable. It's a beauracratic nightmare. We have the greatest healthcare system in the world.
Right. Rush and Hannity say this all the time and it is nonsense. In Canada they spend a much lower percentage of their GDP on health care and their life expectancy is higher.
Maybe our system wouldn't be so messed up if we didn't fund the entire immigrant population or the masses that flee their own country's "National Heathcare System" for care in the US....We treat anyone and everyone. No person in need is ever turned away from the ER and there TONS of free clinics that our system already funds and has funded forever....a woman from Nigeria, Nigerian citizen, doesn't even live or work in the US, and your tax dollars just paid to support the final 3 months of her pregnancy and her delivery. Oh, by the way, that kid is now a US citizen. If that isn't incredibly stupid and unbelievable, I don't know what is.
You sure have a lot of gripes about the “best health care system in the world”.
I'm really not for "screwing" anyone else in this industry. I've said it before that I would do anything I could to help out another pilot in need or help someone achieve their career objectives.
I do not know what else to call it when you want to divide our union into smaller unions and create what you think will be an organization that will focus only on your immediate needs. You would do anything to help another pilot except belong to a union large enough to represent both of you.
There's a fight brewing within this industy, and we're coming to get our jobs, aircraft, and routes back that belong at mainline. It's nothing against you, and it's nothing personal, but enough is enough. This will make this profession, as a whole, better.
You will never be able get a major airline to agree to pay pilots $200 hour to fly 100-seaters. Not in this economy. You are right; regionals are flying aircraft the majors should be flying. That horse has already left the barn. You will not be able to rewrite history. From a union stand point, the best way to improve the situation is to have contracts that apply to regional and major airlines, and preferably a national contract that covers all airline employers. Negotiate true “flow-up/flow-back language that provides furlough protection to major pilots and career progression to regional pilots. Establish rigid scope clauses at the 70 seat mark. Negotiate reasonable, increased rates of pay for the larger regional aircraft and have them flown by the major carriers.
Because I am unclear where I would fit into the aftermath of your “coming to get our jobs, aircraft, and routes back”, and uncertain what help I could expect from your seperate union for the members of my seperate union, I will definitely take it personally.
I've spent years away from my family and friends while on active duty in the military, and I did go straight from the military to a major. What's your point? You think I should've started at a regional?
Maybe. I do not think that all military flying has a direct relationship to airline flying. I do not think that all military pilots are better prepared than I to work at a major airline. Flying a single seat fighter or attack aircraft relates to airline flying about the same as piloting an LCAC. I was in the military. I too spent time away from friends and family. My service was in the enlisted ranks and therefore is of little use in getting hired by a major airline. If the majors want to give preference to veterans, then make it apply to all veterans.
ALPA national does much good in the political and safety side of the house, but they can't support both of us on the line type of issues at the same time. I don't want a union that isn't solely looking after the interest of my workforce.
I got it. You are putting the “I” back in union. I think you make too much of the “differences” between mainline and regional flying. Both involve complex aircraft under Part 121 rules. The only differences are aircraft size (and that is narrowing by the day), pay, and work rules.
Go to Europe, even Canada and take a look at "how good" national health care really is. It's miserable. It's a beauracratic nightmare. We have the greatest healthcare system in the world.
Right. Rush and Hannity say this all the time and it is nonsense. In Canada they spend a much lower percentage of their GDP on health care and their life expectancy is higher.
Maybe our system wouldn't be so messed up if we didn't fund the entire immigrant population or the masses that flee their own country's "National Heathcare System" for care in the US....We treat anyone and everyone. No person in need is ever turned away from the ER and there TONS of free clinics that our system already funds and has funded forever....a woman from Nigeria, Nigerian citizen, doesn't even live or work in the US, and your tax dollars just paid to support the final 3 months of her pregnancy and her delivery. Oh, by the way, that kid is now a US citizen. If that isn't incredibly stupid and unbelievable, I don't know what is.
You sure have a lot of gripes about the “best health care system in the world”.
I'm really not for "screwing" anyone else in this industry. I've said it before that I would do anything I could to help out another pilot in need or help someone achieve their career objectives.
I do not know what else to call it when you want to divide our union into smaller unions and create what you think will be an organization that will focus only on your immediate needs. You would do anything to help another pilot except belong to a union large enough to represent both of you.
There's a fight brewing within this industy, and we're coming to get our jobs, aircraft, and routes back that belong at mainline. It's nothing against you, and it's nothing personal, but enough is enough. This will make this profession, as a whole, better.
You will never be able get a major airline to agree to pay pilots $200 hour to fly 100-seaters. Not in this economy. You are right; regionals are flying aircraft the majors should be flying. That horse has already left the barn. You will not be able to rewrite history. From a union stand point, the best way to improve the situation is to have contracts that apply to regional and major airlines, and preferably a national contract that covers all airline employers. Negotiate true “flow-up/flow-back language that provides furlough protection to major pilots and career progression to regional pilots. Establish rigid scope clauses at the 70 seat mark. Negotiate reasonable, increased rates of pay for the larger regional aircraft and have them flown by the major carriers.
Because I am unclear where I would fit into the aftermath of your “coming to get our jobs, aircraft, and routes back”, and uncertain what help I could expect from your seperate union for the members of my seperate union, I will definitely take it personally.
Last edited by TheDashRocks; 02-17-2009 at 10:57 PM. Reason: seplling
02-17-2009 | 11:53 PM
#87
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 931
Likes: 0
From: B-7ER JFK
You will never be able get a major airline to agree to pay pilots $200 hour to fly 100-seaters. Not in this economy. You are right; regionals are flying aircraft the majors should be flying. That horse has already left the barn. You will not be able to rewrite history.
02-18-2009 | 03:31 AM
#88
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,350
Likes: 0
From: Flying the SEC
Jolly, answer me this. What is painted on the side of your airplane? What does the ticket say? How many gates does your company own? How about a marketing and strategic planning division? Does your company have route authority anywhere?
Face it, the regionals today are subcontractors. The routes they fly are owned by mainlines and subcontracted out. They fly them at the sole discretion of the mainline corporation.
It wasn't always that way. There were many independent regional airlines but they have either been absorbed, failed, or codeshared into subcontractordom. (OK, I made that word up).
So when Rhino says we are coming to get our jobs back, he is exactly right. The routes and seats belong to the mainline. It's time we brought them back. If you want to fly Delta Passengers in Delta airplanes, here is where you apply. Airline Applications
Face it, the regionals today are subcontractors. The routes they fly are owned by mainlines and subcontracted out. They fly them at the sole discretion of the mainline corporation.
It wasn't always that way. There were many independent regional airlines but they have either been absorbed, failed, or codeshared into subcontractordom. (OK, I made that word up).
So when Rhino says we are coming to get our jobs back, he is exactly right. The routes and seats belong to the mainline. It's time we brought them back. If you want to fly Delta Passengers in Delta airplanes, here is where you apply. Airline Applications
02-18-2009 | 04:02 AM
#89
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,919
Likes: 0
If you want to fly Delta Passengers in Delta airplanes, here is where you apply. Airline Applications
02-18-2009 | 07:19 AM
#90
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 305
Likes: 0
From: DHC-8 CA Furloughed
Give in, give in, give in. Stand up mister, and fight for your rights. This thread is about getting all crewmembers flying one color, under one union, not a crababy letout for people who just give up. Be optimistic and start thinking outside the box instead of just give, give, give, and then cry about it.
Face it, the regionals today are subcontractors. The routes they fly are owned by mainlines and subcontracted out. They fly them at the sole discretion of the mainline corporation.
So when Rhino says we are coming to get our jobs back, he is exactly right. The routes and seats belong to the mainline. It's time we brought them back. If you want to fly Delta Passengers in Delta airplanes, here is where you apply. Airline Applications
So when Rhino says we are coming to get our jobs back, he is exactly right. The routes and seats belong to the mainline. It's time we brought them back. If you want to fly Delta Passengers in Delta airplanes, here is where you apply. Airline Applications
I have said several times that some current regional flying should be done at the majors. I think the best way to make this happen is to have the airline pilot's union negotiate contracts that cover major and regional airlines. With the limits that the RLA places on striking and the economic condition of the most major airlines, moving larger regional aircraft to the majors at pay rates matching those of the B737/A320/MD80 will not happen. The best case scenario is that these aircraft would be flown at pay rates that lie between current regional CRJ7/9 and major narrow body pay.
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