Can you say "straw man argument??" The majors lost most scope strength through the bankruptcy judges...not because we forgot to bargain for it. But I would like to see RJ pilots stand and fight for higher wages and bettering their profession.

So is that the excuse as to why RJ pilots have yet to stand up? I guess you can always find a reason not to fight...if you look hard enough.

We do need to fix our side of the house. But understand that an RJ pilot that flies for substandard wages in the hopes of gaining experience for a major, undermines the very job he/she dreams of attaining. That is half the problem.

Carl

 

......................

 

It is not that I expect the regional pilot to fight this. We at the major need to realize that it will take many gains to we deserve to get this back. Problem is that many of the guys in their late 40's to mid 50's are sick of giving and do not care what happens to the bottom of the list. They are trying to just get as much as they can out of what time they have left in this career. It will always be this way, and management knows that. Now there are some that are willing to fight, but I have meet more than a few that will not give up one gain for tighter scope.

Further more, regional pilots can stop slapping the mainline groups with lawsuits when they do not get flying they think they deserve. It is counter productive.

 

Most RJ's aren't RJ's (they are just called that). Most are mainline capable aircraft flown on a B scale. "RJ" pilots feel it is a stepping stone, and Mainline pilots gave up "RJ" scope for the promise of something better for mainline pilots. The ERJ145 50 seater flies from Houston to Toronto or from Newark to Nassua. The EMB-170 flies from DTW to MTY or GRR to MCO. These are NOT regional jets, just mainline aircraft allowed to be operated at a B scale wage. While this is just a long term goal and needs to be done in small strategic steps, Major airline pilots need to get control of all flying PERIOD.

 

Pointing the finger at B scale pilots or A scale pilots is not the solution. We know what the problem is and we have to work together to fix it. It is both the fault of A and B scale pilots, and since we have established that it is time to move forward.

 

It is both sides fault. I've said that many times. But many RJ guys post about how none of this is their fault. They are blameless. It's all the major's fault. You know: "don't blame me...how else am I going to get the experience to join a major?"

Until the RJ guys understand they are at least half the problem, the whipsaw model will continue. Until the RJ guys understand they've done NOTHING to substantively better their profession, the whipsaw model will continue.

Carl

 

That will do nothing to stop the whipsaw model. As long as people are willing to work for nothing in order to build jet time, another RJ operator will fill the void. The new RJ operator will have lower operating costs than the majors. This will attract the attention of the majors. Majors will then use new RJ operator, park their own RJ's and furlough.

Your opinion of what needs to happen solves nothing.

Carl

 

Johnnyjetprop,

Since you've chosen to edit my post in a manner to which I can't directly respond, I'll have to respond this way:

Scope was NOT lost the minute the major's allowed RJ flying. The big losses happened in bankruptcy. If you don't know that, then you don't pay attention.

You say it's pretty hard to stand up when your whole airline can be replaced by another. This was the case in every strike I've ever been party to. It makes you sick to your stomach - but you fight anyway because you know you must. It's always hard to stand up. Always.

The major's bargaining away Scope is not the bigger half of the problem it is half the problem. RJ pilots cannot shirk their share of the responsibility. When you work for nothing, and do nothing to change it, you are part of the problem. Management teams could not operate an RJ fleet with cheap operating costs if pilots were not willing to work for substandard wages and conditions.

Carl

 

You have my word that if this ever happens at CPZ, I will personally slap whoever decides that this is a good idea...

I personally do not want any more flying done at this company. This sh!tbag management team needs to be stripped of any decision-making capability for good.

 

At the risk of ****ing off my fellow heavy iron drivers, the problem IS with the majors. It began in the late 70's when the MEC's at the likes of USAir, Piedmont, EAL, DAL, CAL, NWA and anyone who had signed up "commuter partners" refused to put language in their contracts that would have allowed the commuters to become their "farm teams." Management was brilliant; they knew the day would come that the commuter guys would be ****ed for not having the chance to move up. And when they couldn't get the mainline guys to give in on concessions, hell, just move the flying to the commuters. Make them happy and **** off the mainline guys.

And here we are. Mainline guys who as commuter pilots could not get hired by their big brother went to another mainline and now hate the "little guy" they forget they once were. Ex military guys (no offense intended here at all guys), don't see how some guy flying an RJ or Turboprop for years could POSSIBLY have the experience they have or has any right to take their job, because they trained hard to get where they are too. The guy on the RJ, who hauls the folks out of East Bum*&^ to the hub for the big guy's is treated like third world trash by many mainline guys whose ego's well exceed their IQ's. And when the mainline guys (some, not all) hear the word "furlough," they feel "entitled" to take the RJ guys job because after all...it's MY flying!

BS.

The flying belongs to everyone. Management has and will continue to play pilots for suckers because they know we're greedy, self serving and will screw each other in a heartbeat if it means a better trip, more days off or more bucks in the paycheck to pay for toys we're "entitled" to.

Want the proof? Look around. When have we ever stood up for each other unless there was something in it for ourselves? Anyone NOT know pilots at our own carriers who prostitute themselves and crow about it? Do we; indivudually, or as groups, demand that they be held accountable for screwing the rest of us or the profession as a whole?

Has our beloved and all powerful ALPA ever said that a picket line at an airport should NEVER be crossed by pilots from ANY ALPA carrier? Ya think THAT might have gotten managements attention?

Of course not. It's easier to sit on the bench and whine, point fingers and blame the RJ guys.

We big iron guys ARE the ones who can and should demand change. If our leadership won't do it, RECALL THEM. And if the new guys don't do it, recall their asses too. Start supporting the RJ's and you start supporting yourself. Management will begin to realize that when we collectively as pilots stand together...regardless of the carrier or union affiliation...they have no choice but to deal with us.

As long as we continue to let them call the shots, nothing will change. The only difference will be that as ALPA continues to lose it's strength and credibility, the wedge will be driven deeper by management, and that RJ driver everyone seems so happily to collectively crap on today will be much less inclined to give a damn about you when you need his support and come to him with the "unity and brotherhood" speech in your hour of need.

Now before any "Johnny come lately's" out here accuse me of being an RJ shill...I was a "commuter puke" in the early 80's. Our code share partner would not hire us, so all us senior guys went to other majors, UAL, EAL, DAL and others. I've been through 5 airline bankruptcies and a personal one caused by three of them. Lost everything including a nice retirement. And now fly heavy iron again, hopefully with the last carrier in my career if I'm lucky.

If the day ever comes that I can't reach back and try to help improve the chances of others or the future members of this profession...I'll walk away. It may leave me digging ditches, but I'll have my integrity and will be able to sleep at night.

OK...off the soapbox...standing by for arrows and grenades.