Outsourcing??
03-21-2009 | 06:18 PM
#52
Back on TDY
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 12,487
Likes: 0
From: 747-400 Captain
At the risk of ****ing off my fellow heavy iron drivers, the problem IS with the majors. It began in the late 70's when the MEC's at the likes of USAir, Piedmont, EAL, DAL, CAL, NWA and anyone who had signed up "commuter partners" refused to put language in their contracts that would have allowed the commuters to become their "farm teams." Management was brilliant; they knew the day would come that the commuter guys would be ****ed for not having the chance to move up. And when they couldn't get the mainline guys to give in on concessions, hell, just move the flying to the commuters. Make them happy and **** off the mainline guys.
And here we are. Mainline guys who as commuter pilots could not get hired by their big brother went to another mainline and now hate the "little guy" they forget they once were. Ex military guys (no offense intended here at all guys), don't see how some guy flying an RJ or Turboprop for years could POSSIBLY have the experience they have or has any right to take their job, because they trained hard to get where they are too. The guy on the RJ, who hauls the folks out of East Bum*&^ to the hub for the big guy's is treated like third world trash by many mainline guys whose ego's well exceed their IQ's. And when the mainline guys (some, not all) hear the word "furlough," they feel "entitled" to take the RJ guys job because after all...it's MY flying!
BS.
The flying belongs to everyone. Management has and will continue to play pilots for suckers because they know we're greedy, self serving and will screw each other in a heartbeat if it means a better trip, more days off or more bucks in the paycheck to pay for toys we're "entitled" to.
Want the proof? Look around. When have we ever stood up for each other unless there was something in it for ourselves? Anyone NOT know pilots at our own carriers who prostitute themselves and crow about it? Do we; indivudually, or as groups, demand that they be held accountable for screwing the rest of us or the profession as a whole?
Has our beloved and all powerful ALPA ever said that a picket line at an airport should NEVER be crossed by pilots from ANY ALPA carrier? Ya think THAT might have gotten managements attention?
Of course not. It's easier to sit on the bench and whine, point fingers and blame the RJ guys.
We big iron guys ARE the ones who can and should demand change. If our leadership won't do it, RECALL THEM. And if the new guys don't do it, recall their asses too. Start supporting the RJ's and you start supporting yourself. Management will begin to realize that when we collectively as pilots stand together...regardless of the carrier or union affiliation...they have no choice but to deal with us.
As long as we continue to let them call the shots, nothing will change. The only difference will be that as ALPA continues to lose it's strength and credibility, the wedge will be driven deeper by management, and that RJ driver everyone seems so happily to collectively crap on today will be much less inclined to give a damn about you when you need his support and come to him with the "unity and brotherhood" speech in your hour of need.
Now before any "Johnny come lately's" out here accuse me of being an RJ shill...I was a "commuter puke" in the early 80's. Our code share partner would not hire us, so all us senior guys went to other majors, UAL, EAL, DAL and others. I've been through 5 airline bankruptcies and a personal one caused by three of them. Lost everything including a nice retirement. And now fly heavy iron again, hopefully with the last carrier in my career if I'm lucky.
If the day ever comes that I can't reach back and try to help improve the chances of others or the future members of this profession...I'll walk away. It may leave me digging ditches, but I'll have my integrity and will be able to sleep at night.
OK...off the soapbox...standing by for arrows and grenades.
And here we are. Mainline guys who as commuter pilots could not get hired by their big brother went to another mainline and now hate the "little guy" they forget they once were. Ex military guys (no offense intended here at all guys), don't see how some guy flying an RJ or Turboprop for years could POSSIBLY have the experience they have or has any right to take their job, because they trained hard to get where they are too. The guy on the RJ, who hauls the folks out of East Bum*&^ to the hub for the big guy's is treated like third world trash by many mainline guys whose ego's well exceed their IQ's. And when the mainline guys (some, not all) hear the word "furlough," they feel "entitled" to take the RJ guys job because after all...it's MY flying!
BS.
The flying belongs to everyone. Management has and will continue to play pilots for suckers because they know we're greedy, self serving and will screw each other in a heartbeat if it means a better trip, more days off or more bucks in the paycheck to pay for toys we're "entitled" to.
Want the proof? Look around. When have we ever stood up for each other unless there was something in it for ourselves? Anyone NOT know pilots at our own carriers who prostitute themselves and crow about it? Do we; indivudually, or as groups, demand that they be held accountable for screwing the rest of us or the profession as a whole?
Has our beloved and all powerful ALPA ever said that a picket line at an airport should NEVER be crossed by pilots from ANY ALPA carrier? Ya think THAT might have gotten managements attention?
Of course not. It's easier to sit on the bench and whine, point fingers and blame the RJ guys.
We big iron guys ARE the ones who can and should demand change. If our leadership won't do it, RECALL THEM. And if the new guys don't do it, recall their asses too. Start supporting the RJ's and you start supporting yourself. Management will begin to realize that when we collectively as pilots stand together...regardless of the carrier or union affiliation...they have no choice but to deal with us.
As long as we continue to let them call the shots, nothing will change. The only difference will be that as ALPA continues to lose it's strength and credibility, the wedge will be driven deeper by management, and that RJ driver everyone seems so happily to collectively crap on today will be much less inclined to give a damn about you when you need his support and come to him with the "unity and brotherhood" speech in your hour of need.
Now before any "Johnny come lately's" out here accuse me of being an RJ shill...I was a "commuter puke" in the early 80's. Our code share partner would not hire us, so all us senior guys went to other majors, UAL, EAL, DAL and others. I've been through 5 airline bankruptcies and a personal one caused by three of them. Lost everything including a nice retirement. And now fly heavy iron again, hopefully with the last carrier in my career if I'm lucky.
If the day ever comes that I can't reach back and try to help improve the chances of others or the future members of this profession...I'll walk away. It may leave me digging ditches, but I'll have my integrity and will be able to sleep at night.
OK...off the soapbox...standing by for arrows and grenades.
You seem to give an entire pass to people who accept starvation wages in order to build time. To get to a major. A profession that their continued action is helping to destroy.
I faced the same thing in 1982. Furloughed 5 times in 4 years and needed a job. American called me for an interview. I was elated. Then they said I would be on a B scale. I declined the interview. Many thousands of others didn't decline. They took the job then mercilessly b!tched about it.
Your actions in life have meaning. Serious meaning.
Carl
03-21-2009 | 06:25 PM
#53
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 133
Likes: 0
From: Non flying, pays better than any front seat, home every night, not missing the crashpad/
At the risk of ****ing off my fellow heavy iron drivers, the problem IS with the majors. It began in the late 70's when the MEC's at the likes of USAir, Piedmont, EAL, DAL, CAL, NWA and anyone who had signed up "commuter partners" refused to put language in their contracts that would have allowed the commuters to become their "farm teams." Management was brilliant; they knew the day would come that the commuter guys would be ****ed for not having the chance to move up. And when they couldn't get the mainline guys to give in on concessions, hell, just move the flying to the commuters. Make them happy and **** off the mainline guys.
And here we are. Mainline guys who as commuter pilots could not get hired by their big brother went to another mainline and now hate the "little guy" they forget they once were. Ex military guys (no offense intended here at all guys), don't see how some guy flying an RJ or Turboprop for years could POSSIBLY have the experience they have or has any right to take their job, because they trained hard to get where they are too. The guy on the RJ, who hauls the folks out of East Bum*&^ to the hub for the big guy's is treated like third world trash by many mainline guys whose ego's well exceed their IQ's. And when the mainline guys (some, not all) hear the word "furlough," they feel "entitled" to take the RJ guys job because after all...it's MY flying!
BS.
The flying belongs to everyone. Management has and will continue to play pilots for suckers because they know we're greedy, self serving and will screw each other in a heartbeat if it means a better trip, more days off or more bucks in the paycheck to pay for toys we're "entitled" to.
Want the proof? Look around. When have we ever stood up for each other unless there was something in it for ourselves? Anyone NOT know pilots at our own carriers who prostitute themselves and crow about it? Do we; indivudually, or as groups, demand that they be held accountable for screwing the rest of us or the profession as a whole?
Has our beloved and all powerful ALPA ever said that a picket line at an airport should NEVER be crossed by pilots from ANY ALPA carrier? Ya think THAT might have gotten managements attention?
Of course not. It's easier to sit on the bench and whine, point fingers and blame the RJ guys.
We big iron guys ARE the ones who can and should demand change. If our leadership won't do it, RECALL THEM. And if the new guys don't do it, recall their asses too. Start supporting the RJ's and you start supporting yourself. Management will begin to realize that when we collectively as pilots stand together...regardless of the carrier or union affiliation...they have no choice but to deal with us.
As long as we continue to let them call the shots, nothing will change. The only difference will be that as ALPA continues to lose it's strength and credibility, the wedge will be driven deeper by management, and that RJ driver everyone seems so happily to collectively crap on today will be much less inclined to give a damn about you when you need his support and come to him with the "unity and brotherhood" speech in your hour of need.
Now before any "Johnny come lately's" out here accuse me of being an RJ shill...I was a "commuter puke" in the early 80's. Our code share partner would not hire us, so all us senior guys went to other majors, UAL, EAL, DAL and others. I've been through 5 airline bankruptcies and a personal one caused by three of them. Lost everything including a nice retirement. And now fly heavy iron again, hopefully with the last carrier in my career if I'm lucky.
If the day ever comes that I can't reach back and try to help improve the chances of others or the future members of this profession...I'll walk away. It may leave me digging ditches, but I'll have my integrity and will be able to sleep at night.
OK...off the soapbox...standing by for arrows and grenades.
And here we are. Mainline guys who as commuter pilots could not get hired by their big brother went to another mainline and now hate the "little guy" they forget they once were. Ex military guys (no offense intended here at all guys), don't see how some guy flying an RJ or Turboprop for years could POSSIBLY have the experience they have or has any right to take their job, because they trained hard to get where they are too. The guy on the RJ, who hauls the folks out of East Bum*&^ to the hub for the big guy's is treated like third world trash by many mainline guys whose ego's well exceed their IQ's. And when the mainline guys (some, not all) hear the word "furlough," they feel "entitled" to take the RJ guys job because after all...it's MY flying!
BS.
The flying belongs to everyone. Management has and will continue to play pilots for suckers because they know we're greedy, self serving and will screw each other in a heartbeat if it means a better trip, more days off or more bucks in the paycheck to pay for toys we're "entitled" to.
Want the proof? Look around. When have we ever stood up for each other unless there was something in it for ourselves? Anyone NOT know pilots at our own carriers who prostitute themselves and crow about it? Do we; indivudually, or as groups, demand that they be held accountable for screwing the rest of us or the profession as a whole?
Has our beloved and all powerful ALPA ever said that a picket line at an airport should NEVER be crossed by pilots from ANY ALPA carrier? Ya think THAT might have gotten managements attention?
Of course not. It's easier to sit on the bench and whine, point fingers and blame the RJ guys.
We big iron guys ARE the ones who can and should demand change. If our leadership won't do it, RECALL THEM. And if the new guys don't do it, recall their asses too. Start supporting the RJ's and you start supporting yourself. Management will begin to realize that when we collectively as pilots stand together...regardless of the carrier or union affiliation...they have no choice but to deal with us.
As long as we continue to let them call the shots, nothing will change. The only difference will be that as ALPA continues to lose it's strength and credibility, the wedge will be driven deeper by management, and that RJ driver everyone seems so happily to collectively crap on today will be much less inclined to give a damn about you when you need his support and come to him with the "unity and brotherhood" speech in your hour of need.
Now before any "Johnny come lately's" out here accuse me of being an RJ shill...I was a "commuter puke" in the early 80's. Our code share partner would not hire us, so all us senior guys went to other majors, UAL, EAL, DAL and others. I've been through 5 airline bankruptcies and a personal one caused by three of them. Lost everything including a nice retirement. And now fly heavy iron again, hopefully with the last carrier in my career if I'm lucky.
If the day ever comes that I can't reach back and try to help improve the chances of others or the future members of this profession...I'll walk away. It may leave me digging ditches, but I'll have my integrity and will be able to sleep at night.
OK...off the soapbox...standing by for arrows and grenades.
03-21-2009 | 06:35 PM
#54
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 798
Likes: 0
It is not that I expect the regional pilot to fight this. We at the major need to realize that it will take many gains to we deserve to get this back. Problem is that many of the guys in their late 40's to mid 50's are sick of giving and do not care what happens to the bottom of the list. They are trying to just get as much as they can out of what time they have left in this career. It will always be this way, and management knows that. Now there are some that are willing to fight, but I have meet more than a few that will not give up one gain for tighter scope.
Further more, regional pilots can stop slapping the mainline groups with lawsuits when they do not get flying they think they deserve. It is counter productive.
Further more, regional pilots can stop slapping the mainline groups with lawsuits when they do not get flying they think they deserve. It is counter productive.
The problem is the RJ is growing in size and soon the RJ will undermine your scale. Do not think the majors will be safe if the larger RJs continue to grow in size or numbers.
Midwest and United are examples that scope is EVERYTHING!
03-21-2009 | 06:50 PM
#55
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 798
Likes: 0
I agree.
Look at the banking industry, GM, AIG, or Ford. These business are considered too big to fail. If the US Airline industry had 4-5 Giant carriers with aircraft from 70 seat E170 to 400 seat B747 do you think we would have more job security?
YES
Less whip-sawing, more career security and political power in the boardroom. You get hired with xxx airline at age 30 flying a RJ and retire flying a 777... it is as close as the airline industry all get to a national seniority list.
03-21-2009 | 08:24 PM
#56
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 255
Likes: 0
From: New Hire
Well that's because they are two different things. I gave an opinion, and not a solution.
Now that we have established that both groups are at fault we can call it water under the bridge and work to a solution keeping in mind the very idea of having two separate groups creates a weakness. Do you have any solutions to offer?
03-21-2009 | 10:35 PM
#57
Line Holder
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 88
Likes: 0
From: Facing forward, punching buttons
"You seem to give an entire pass to people who accept starvation wages in order to build time. To get to a major. A profession that their continued action is helping to destroy."
Carl, I give a pass to no one. I taught and flew commuters for crap pay. $1200/month as a -99 Captain and $1600/as a Shorts Captain. I'm guessing w're pretty close in age. What did you build your time flying before you got to the majors? How much did it pay? We both fly the same piece of iron now, just different companies.
The point is that the rules of engagement have changed and management changed them. Instead of trashing the RJ's, we should be demanding our union leadership negotiate rules that include them in the protections we all want. That way they can't keep whipsawing.
Scope only works if it is a blanket protection for everyone under the same set of rules. Otherwise, just as evidenced here, it's more of, "I got mine. &^%$# you guys, pull up the ladder."
Sadly, given Moak's loathing of regionals, I don't see change coming at DAL. Nor with Prater at National.
Carl, I give a pass to no one. I taught and flew commuters for crap pay. $1200/month as a -99 Captain and $1600/as a Shorts Captain. I'm guessing w're pretty close in age. What did you build your time flying before you got to the majors? How much did it pay? We both fly the same piece of iron now, just different companies.
The point is that the rules of engagement have changed and management changed them. Instead of trashing the RJ's, we should be demanding our union leadership negotiate rules that include them in the protections we all want. That way they can't keep whipsawing.
Scope only works if it is a blanket protection for everyone under the same set of rules. Otherwise, just as evidenced here, it's more of, "I got mine. &^%$# you guys, pull up the ladder."
Sadly, given Moak's loathing of regionals, I don't see change coming at DAL. Nor with Prater at National.
03-22-2009 | 03:39 AM
#58
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 20,899
Likes: 219
Sadly, given Moak's loathing of regionals, I don't see change coming at DAL. Nor with Prater at National.
Do you have a single shred of evidence to back up this statement about Moak? Have you ever talked with him? Have you read all he has published? Give me some examples.
Do you have a single shred of evidence to back up this statement about Moak? Have you ever talked with him? Have you read all he has published? Give me some examples.
03-22-2009 | 04:28 AM
#59
Retired
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 3,527
Likes: 0
From: whale wrangler
The old game of divide and conquer continues.
Band together and then take the fight to management because all they are doing is sitting there laughing because you folk's are fighting amongst yourselves.
Fred
Band together and then take the fight to management because all they are doing is sitting there laughing because you folk's are fighting amongst yourselves.
Fred
03-22-2009 | 04:34 AM
#60
Happy to be here
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 18,563
Likes: 0
From: A-320A
We at the majors are the ones responsible for the amount of flying at the regional level. When most people hired on at a regional they were "green" as to the politics and policies of airlines and their unions. If you want to stop this you need to do more than just point fingers at the guys who sign on to make 20 bucks an hr. They do not know any better. Why? because no one has taken the time to tell them.
Educate, and if you are going to farm out your flying, put stipulations on who gets it and for how much.
We at the mainline level want the regional pilots to make a ton of money. The more you make the closer your costs are to the legacy the flying undercuts.
Educate, and if you are going to farm out your flying, put stipulations on who gets it and for how much.
We at the mainline level want the regional pilots to make a ton of money. The more you make the closer your costs are to the legacy the flying undercuts.
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