TheDashRocks

[quote=skybolt;612394]

Part One. Pilots who have not learned their craft have been allowed to sit in the seat of an airliner. More later.
Part Two. The airline pilot certification system is not capable of catching the pilots who don't YET belong in the seat of an airplane carrying people for hire.

Good post, Skybolt. Almost any certification and training process will allow a few incapable people to slip by. I am thinking of an F-14 crash in the southeast during the early 90's. The pilot had been visiting family and decided to show them a max climb. He pulled a lot of G's climbing more or less straight up into an overcast. He lost situational awareness and control of the aircraft. His RIO had control of the ejection seats but was blacked out due to G-LOC and did not punch them out. The aircraft crashed and both were killed. This was the second aircraft this pilot had crashed due to poor judgement.

About my first point. For decades, a pilot spent many years as a civilian actually flying airplanes. Either as an instructor, or freight dawg flying checks, or any one of hundreds of other positions that allowed/forced the pilot to gain real stick and rudder time. Military pilots accelerated the process, but the large majority of their time was spent either training, or being trained.

During this period there were still crashes due to poor airmanship or a lack of judgement. I favor requiring an ATP to be hired by a Part 121 carrier. However, I cannot help but worry about how difficult it might make it for someone to begin a carrier. I do not think CFI or other jobs that woild give someone the opportunity to gain experience are easy to find right now. The economy has also allowed airlines to raise their minimums. I doubt anyone is being hired at 500/50 right now.


The Dash Whisperer

SkyHigh

There are more accidents blamed on complacency then lack of experience. If the middle of the envelope is the best place to be in regards to safety then perhaps pilots should be trimmed when they reach a certain age or experience level. At least older pilots should be kicked back to the right seat.

In our modern age of equality the bottom has gotten lower in regards to hiring low time pilots and the top has gotten longer with the age 65 rule. How long will it be before we start having accidents where two 64 year old guys fall asleep on approach?

The best approach is to minimize the human element altogether. In the end the answer will be fully automated planes.

Skyhigh

skybolt

Of course there were still crashes due to poor airmanship and or lack of judgment. But those crashes did not kill innocent passengers who bought a ticket expecting to be flown by safe pilots.

This debate is not about the difficulty factor surrounding the airline pilot career. It's about preventing airline crashes. It took me until 36 years of age before I managed to get a decent airline job, so I know how difficult it can be, but that in no way excuses a system that has been placing unskilled pilots in control of peoples lives.

Would you put your mother on a regional flight if you KNEW that the pilots never developed any flying skill before getting into that RJ/turboprop seat?

Lighteningspeed

Ideally, all airline flying should be done by that airline. A good example is Lufthansa. All flying, whether it is a flight on a CRJ900 or overseas international flight on a B777, are flown by Lufthansa pilots under one seniority system. If we had the same system here in the US, there would be no Mesa, GoJet, XJT, CHQ, Skywest etc, etc. All United Airlines flying would be done by United Airlines pilots and all Delta Airlines flying would be carried out by DAL pilots whether it is Saab 340, CRJ900, CRJ200, or a E175 flight. This way all training would be under the mainline control and everyone would go through the same type of training.

Everyone gets a random selection on what type of aircraft to fly, giving consideration to their own experience and desires and based on that particular airlines' needs at that particular time. Similar to the aircraft assignment in the military. If you do well during the initial ground school before the aircraft systems training begins, you get your pick of the aircraft, within the constraint of the airline needs at the time you finish your initial ground school.

On the point requiring ATP to fly Part 121. Yeah, I agree with that. That takes care of minimum 1500 hours and min age 23 requirements.

Pilotpip

And the low time guys go to the little (regional aircraft) where they are trained under an FAA approved 121 course.

Sound familiar? This is exactly how it's done at the regionals as well. How would Delta, or United, or American train to any different standard? How can you expect any different level of training when they do the same thing?

I think one of the big issues is that now that air travel has become so safe every accident is scrutinized to the Nth degree. You can never eliminate them but we're doing a pretty good job the reduce them when you can count the number of fatal accidents at 121 carriers this decade on your hands. When you couple that with 24 hour mass hysteria news channels you have a very bad mix.

Basically, I think you're saying this would have never happened if the majors hadn't given up scope. We would still have accidents because majors crash too.

ERJ135

Actually while i agree for the most part. I have another side to this argument. When i got hired 3yrs ago at former carrier. I had 1300hrs 200 or so hours multi. I was an instructor. I will fully admit my instrument skills where lacking when I got hired. While i am a CFII and MEI. I ended up with a lot traffic pattern work. I actually was a anxious about flying in the clouds as i did not have a lot of actual time. I had few bad experiences with ice and t storms in the GA airplanes. I guess you could say i learned something from these experiences. However, i didn't feel comfortable flying around in actual conditions. After being hired by commutair, flying the B1900, no autopilot; flying through the rain, snow, ice, thunderstorms, fog. Landing on snow cover runways with mountains around in Rutland VT and Saranac Lake NY. That did more for confidence then anything. It really fine tuned my instrument, flying skills, and made me comfortable flying through anything. Now i want to go flying through the eye of a hurricane. So I think it depends what type of aircraft new guys jump into.... JMO

Lighteningspeed

How do you make that assumption based on my post? My post has not addressed what would have prevented this accident. I was merely addressing our current airline career problem we are all facing with no light at the end of the tunnel.

My position is that ideally, all brand name flying should be done under one flag with same standardized training and this is not how it's done in the US. You have missed the point entirely. My point is there would be no myriad of regionals running around, each with their own training stds. ie., All UAL or DAL flying would be done by UAL or DAL pilots under one seniority system and all their training would be under their own training department. I agree with those who said Minimum stds for getting hired at a Part 121 carrier should be ATP.

Pilotpip

All 121 training programs are approved by the FAA. There are certain items that they must hit regardless. Having been through two regionals and familiar with a major, they've been very similar.

However, even when you get into the same airline they might have different training programs. There was a very good thread in the cargo forum about UPS and the differences in programs there. Depending on the aircraft type, and who's running the program they can be very different even when under the same airline.

Regardless of who's operating the aircraft accidents still happen. Q-400s operated by Continental would not have prevented this because pilots with the same level of experience with the same standard of training (FAA approved) would have been operating the aircraft.

Eric Stratton

Anyone wonder why some regionals don't have sim rides for their interview process while most (if not all) majors have a sim ride?

The leap from small props to regional flying is much greater than the jump to the majors from the regionals. Even some of the wholly owned airlines didn't have sim rides while the major did.

Skyone

Skyhigh, you must be inhaling too much of your dirt bike fumes. I assume that this was all tongue in cheek. Remember, two over 60s can't fly together. And can you give me one 121 accident that has been advanced age related? Think Sully-late 50s, Al Haynes (UAL232) very late 50s. I believe both of those gents did a "fair" job of their situations despite being old and barely able to function in the cockpit. But again, I will take your post as a bit tongue in cheek. Right?