What to look forward to?
11-18-2009 | 03:34 AM
#51
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,717
Likes: 0
From: Retired
Skyhigh,
For the record, here's a list of the highest paying jobs in the U.S. Granted, not all airline pilots make this as an average, nor does the list address how long it takes to be making this amount. However, you might think harder about your constant discouragement of people wanting to become commercial pilots. This list came directly from the Careerbuilder.com website.
Top Paying Jobs Overall
# Physicians and surgeons -- $147,000
# Aircraft pilots -- $133,500
# Chief executives -- $116,000
# Electrical and electronic engineers -- $112,000
# Lawyers and judges -- $99,800
# Dentists -- $90,000
# Pharmacists -- $85,500
# Management analysts -- $84,700
# Computer and information system managers -- $83,000
# Financial analysts, managers and advisors -- $84,000
# Marketing and sales managers -- $80,000
# Education administrators -- $80,000
Though many of these occupations require an advanced degree, there are jobs at every education level that pay more than other jobs for workers with similar levels of schooling. Here, courtesy of the Employment Policy Foundation, is a look at the best-paying occupations at varying education levels:
Top Paying Jobs That Do Not Require a High School Degree
These jobs tend to require substantial on-the-job training and work experience rather than formal education and schooling:
# Industrial production managers -- $36,000
# Bailiffs, correctional officers and jailers -- $36,400
# Drafters -- $36,000
# Construction manager -- $33,600
# Electricians -- $31,900
Top Paying Jobs for High School Graduates
These occupations emphasize work experience and on-the-job training rather than formal education:
# Computer software engineers -- $58,900
# Computer/information systems managers -- $56,400
# Computer programmers -- $55,000
# Network systems and data communications analysts -- $49,000
# General and operations managers -- $48,000
# Database, network and computer systems administrators -- $48,000
Top Paying Jobs for a Two-Year College Degree
The following jobs tend to be technical in nature, emphasizing skills developed on the job as well as job-specific training and certifications:
# Healthcare practitioners -- $66,000
# Business analysts -- $58,000
# Electrical and electronic engineers -- $57,000
# Mechanical engineers -- $56,800
# General and operations managers -- $54,000
# Computer and information systems managers -- $50,400
For the record, here's a list of the highest paying jobs in the U.S. Granted, not all airline pilots make this as an average, nor does the list address how long it takes to be making this amount. However, you might think harder about your constant discouragement of people wanting to become commercial pilots. This list came directly from the Careerbuilder.com website.
Top Paying Jobs Overall
# Physicians and surgeons -- $147,000
# Aircraft pilots -- $133,500
# Chief executives -- $116,000
# Electrical and electronic engineers -- $112,000
# Lawyers and judges -- $99,800
# Dentists -- $90,000
# Pharmacists -- $85,500
# Management analysts -- $84,700
# Computer and information system managers -- $83,000
# Financial analysts, managers and advisors -- $84,000
# Marketing and sales managers -- $80,000
# Education administrators -- $80,000
Though many of these occupations require an advanced degree, there are jobs at every education level that pay more than other jobs for workers with similar levels of schooling. Here, courtesy of the Employment Policy Foundation, is a look at the best-paying occupations at varying education levels:
Top Paying Jobs That Do Not Require a High School Degree
These jobs tend to require substantial on-the-job training and work experience rather than formal education and schooling:
# Industrial production managers -- $36,000
# Bailiffs, correctional officers and jailers -- $36,400
# Drafters -- $36,000
# Construction manager -- $33,600
# Electricians -- $31,900
Top Paying Jobs for High School Graduates
These occupations emphasize work experience and on-the-job training rather than formal education:
# Computer software engineers -- $58,900
# Computer/information systems managers -- $56,400
# Computer programmers -- $55,000
# Network systems and data communications analysts -- $49,000
# General and operations managers -- $48,000
# Database, network and computer systems administrators -- $48,000
Top Paying Jobs for a Two-Year College Degree
The following jobs tend to be technical in nature, emphasizing skills developed on the job as well as job-specific training and certifications:
# Healthcare practitioners -- $66,000
# Business analysts -- $58,000
# Electrical and electronic engineers -- $57,000
# Mechanical engineers -- $56,800
# General and operations managers -- $54,000
# Computer and information systems managers -- $50,400
11-18-2009 | 04:04 AM
#52
Happy to be here
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 18,563
Likes: 0
From: A-320A
Yes, my brother-in-law is an degrees engineer and architect, and is licensed in both. He makes 45K a year with two post graduate degrees and two licenses. Only way he will top 100K is to own the company. Luck you him my sis is a litigation attorney and he can live quite well on his wage.
11-18-2009 | 04:23 AM
#53
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 190
Likes: 0
From: 737
My dentist friend more than doubles my income--and as a Captain for a major I'm one of the highest paid pilots in the industry. Of course, he owns his business--but had I put in the same effort drilling teeth as I've done getting to where I am--I'd be in the same boat. Plus, I wouldn't have had to work weekends and be gone for many family events. I'd make a comment about Dental Tech's vs. FAs but that would just piling on
11-18-2009 | 06:30 AM
#54
Self Employed.
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 7,120
Likes: 0
From: Corporate Pilot
Numbers
Skyhigh,
For the record, here's a list of the highest paying jobs in the U.S. Granted, not all airline pilots make this as an average, nor does the list address how long it takes to be making this amount. However, you might think harder about your constant discouragement of people wanting to become commercial pilots. This list came directly from the Careerbuilder.com website.
Top Paying Jobs Overall
# Physicians and surgeons -- $147,000
# Aircraft pilots -- $133,500
# Chief executives -- $116,000
# Electrical and electronic engineers -- $112,000
# Lawyers and judges -- $99,800
# Dentists -- $90,000
# Pharmacists -- $85,500
# Management analysts -- $84,700
# Computer and information system managers -- $83,000
# Financial analysts, managers and advisors -- $84,000
# Marketing and sales managers -- $80,000
# Education administrators -- $80,000
Though many of these occupations require an advanced degree, there are jobs at every education level that pay more than other jobs for workers with similar levels of schooling. Here, courtesy of the Employment Policy Foundation, is a look at the best-paying occupations at varying education levels:
Top Paying Jobs That Do Not Require a High School Degree
These jobs tend to require substantial on-the-job training and work experience rather than formal education and schooling:
# Industrial production managers -- $36,000
# Bailiffs, correctional officers and jailers -- $36,400
# Drafters -- $36,000
# Construction manager -- $33,600
# Electricians -- $31,900
Top Paying Jobs for High School Graduates
These occupations emphasize work experience and on-the-job training rather than formal education:
# Computer software engineers -- $58,900
# Computer/information systems managers -- $56,400
# Computer programmers -- $55,000
# Network systems and data communications analysts -- $49,000
# General and operations managers -- $48,000
# Database, network and computer systems administrators -- $48,000
Top Paying Jobs for a Two-Year College Degree
The following jobs tend to be technical in nature, emphasizing skills developed on the job as well as job-specific training and certifications:
# Healthcare practitioners -- $66,000
# Business analysts -- $58,000
# Electrical and electronic engineers -- $57,000
# Mechanical engineers -- $56,800
# General and operations managers -- $54,000
# Computer and information systems managers -- $50,400
For the record, here's a list of the highest paying jobs in the U.S. Granted, not all airline pilots make this as an average, nor does the list address how long it takes to be making this amount. However, you might think harder about your constant discouragement of people wanting to become commercial pilots. This list came directly from the Careerbuilder.com website.
Top Paying Jobs Overall
# Physicians and surgeons -- $147,000
# Aircraft pilots -- $133,500
# Chief executives -- $116,000
# Electrical and electronic engineers -- $112,000
# Lawyers and judges -- $99,800
# Dentists -- $90,000
# Pharmacists -- $85,500
# Management analysts -- $84,700
# Computer and information system managers -- $83,000
# Financial analysts, managers and advisors -- $84,000
# Marketing and sales managers -- $80,000
# Education administrators -- $80,000
Though many of these occupations require an advanced degree, there are jobs at every education level that pay more than other jobs for workers with similar levels of schooling. Here, courtesy of the Employment Policy Foundation, is a look at the best-paying occupations at varying education levels:
Top Paying Jobs That Do Not Require a High School Degree
These jobs tend to require substantial on-the-job training and work experience rather than formal education and schooling:
# Industrial production managers -- $36,000
# Bailiffs, correctional officers and jailers -- $36,400
# Drafters -- $36,000
# Construction manager -- $33,600
# Electricians -- $31,900
Top Paying Jobs for High School Graduates
These occupations emphasize work experience and on-the-job training rather than formal education:
# Computer software engineers -- $58,900
# Computer/information systems managers -- $56,400
# Computer programmers -- $55,000
# Network systems and data communications analysts -- $49,000
# General and operations managers -- $48,000
# Database, network and computer systems administrators -- $48,000
Top Paying Jobs for a Two-Year College Degree
The following jobs tend to be technical in nature, emphasizing skills developed on the job as well as job-specific training and certifications:
# Healthcare practitioners -- $66,000
# Business analysts -- $58,000
# Electrical and electronic engineers -- $57,000
# Mechanical engineers -- $56,800
# General and operations managers -- $54,000
# Computer and information systems managers -- $50,400
I wish that were the case. Those numbers are highly suspect and do not explain how they are derived. Often they only consider the "captain" as being a "pilot" and leave out the first officers entirely. And as everyone here knows the FOs make up 48% of airline pilots. If you were only to consider major airline captain wages then that number makes sense. However if you were to add in every pilot from CFI to UPS captains then the average is much much lower.
Additionally as the current generation of pilots move on future ones will have a hard time coming even close to what former pilots earned. When addressing new prospective pilots it is key to consider the earning potential over next 40 years. Their prospects are not so rosy. One time I found a number at a government labor web site that suggested that 30K was the national average for all commercial pilots. I will try and find that site again for you.
In any case wages, benefits and working conditions for airline pilots are falling. Others here have mentioned that in 1978 a USAir 737 captain made the equivalent of 420K and the FO made 250K. In addition they worked much less and had a better benefits package overall. Currently USAir pilots make around 30% of what they use to. The story is similar throughout the industry. A few are able to top 100K after many years of risk and sacrifice. However the profession is only a shadow of what it once was and still has a long way to go before reaching bottom.
Another thing to consider is quality of life, overall earning potential and benefits. A mailman has the future potential of earning more than most airline pilots when you consider that they can start with just a high school diploma at 18, make a good wage from the beginning, do not have to move all the time and do not have to fund their own retirements. They can buy a house much sooner and earn a good wage for the cost of entry. A typical airline pilot in comparison has to invest a small fortune to get educated and trained only then to suffer for possibly decades of low wages and furloughs before finally blasting through 100K only to have the government take much of the the excesses in taxes. A better plan is to make 50K from the beginning and slowly creep up over the years.
Skyhigh
Last edited by SkyHigh; 11-18-2009 at 06:46 AM.
11-18-2009 | 08:59 AM
#55
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 437
Likes: 0
From: NU Guy
Skyhigh,
For the record, here's a list of the highest paying jobs in the U.S. Granted, not all airline pilots make this as an average, nor does the list address how long it takes to be making this amount. However, you might think harder about your constant discouragement of people wanting to become commercial pilots. This list came directly from the Careerbuilder.com website.
Top Paying Jobs Overall
# Physicians and surgeons -- $147,000
# Aircraft pilots -- $133,500
# Chief executives -- $116,000
# Electrical and electronic engineers -- $112,000
For the record, here's a list of the highest paying jobs in the U.S. Granted, not all airline pilots make this as an average, nor does the list address how long it takes to be making this amount. However, you might think harder about your constant discouragement of people wanting to become commercial pilots. This list came directly from the Careerbuilder.com website.
Top Paying Jobs Overall
# Physicians and surgeons -- $147,000
# Aircraft pilots -- $133,500
# Chief executives -- $116,000
# Electrical and electronic engineers -- $112,000
11-19-2009 | 04:31 AM
#56
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 5,738
Likes: 5
From: Sleeping in the black swan’s nest.
DE727UPS is back !!!!
I took a chance and grabbed for the next rung on the ladder. I was not getting any younger and the LCC job seemed to be worth the risk. At the time there were several start up LCC's. Some made it while others folded. Hindsight is 20/20 however at the time it was not clear who the winner was going to be.
I had every reason to believe that my LCC would be the next UPS. I mean you essentially did the same thing by jumping to UPS during its fledgling years. The only diffrence between you and I is that my company went under.
Skyhigh
I took a chance and grabbed for the next rung on the ladder. I was not getting any younger and the LCC job seemed to be worth the risk. At the time there were several start up LCC's. Some made it while others folded. Hindsight is 20/20 however at the time it was not clear who the winner was going to be.
I had every reason to believe that my LCC would be the next UPS. I mean you essentially did the same thing by jumping to UPS during its fledgling years. The only diffrence between you and I is that my company went under.
Skyhigh
Skyhigh I am confused now. In previous posts you have claimed to have climbed to the top of the mountain as far as the aviation was concerned and when you got there it was empty. Is a start up LCC the top of mountain? I don't get it.
Is there a chance that you are being less than honest in some of your posts?
11-19-2009 | 05:54 AM
#57
Self Employed.
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 7,120
Likes: 0
From: Corporate Pilot
Top of the ladder
But.......
Skyhigh I am confused now. In previous posts you have claimed to have climbed to the top of the mountain as far as the aviation was concerned and when you got there it was empty. Is a start up LCC the top of mountain? I don't get it.
Is there a chance that you are being less than honest in some of your posts?
Skyhigh I am confused now. In previous posts you have claimed to have climbed to the top of the mountain as far as the aviation was concerned and when you got there it was empty. Is a start up LCC the top of mountain? I don't get it.
Is there a chance that you are being less than honest in some of your posts?
I was there and did that stuff. If you want at our next opportunity you could send me a PM and I could arrange pick you up at the nearest airport. We could have lunch. I could show you the sights and I also could bring my logbooks and photos. It would be fun.
Maybe you could tell me what the magic bullet is for getting into a legacy?
In any case I am so glad that you are paying such close attention to my posts.
Skyhigh
Last edited by SkyHigh; 11-19-2009 at 06:47 AM.
11-19-2009 | 08:50 AM
#59
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 2,889
Likes: 1
Faith, luck, timing, networking, and the ability to execute under pressure (check rides and interviews...) all play a part in successful aviation career.
It is not for everyone. DBTownley had a dream job at a major...but it turns out it wasn't his dream. I helped a guy leave John Travolta's pilot stable to join SWA...left a great corporate gig to sit reserve as a commuter. Another guy I know left working for Larry Ellison--where he had the key to the store to include some L-39s...to join an airline. If we all wanted the same thing it would be a miserable world. There isn't a "right" career path; there is only the path that is right for you.
One thing that folks forget is everything has a price. I flew fighters in the AF for many years before joining the airlines. The cost was a lot of work, time away from family, some increased risk, and the loss of a few friends. I also have met a lot of guys 5-10 years younger than me from ASA, Exp jet, etc that got here earlier...and some are even captains. I've seen guys junior to me in their 50s that came here from US Air. There are goods and bads to the choices we make, but in this industry there are so many "X" factor unknowns it makes choosing a course a very difficult proposition. Some guys jumped from the military before me--got furloughed at DAL, AAL, and UAL, and came back in via the ANG. Guys who stayed in to 20 in my peer group left the AF to find there were basically zero jobs in aviation at the moment...and now they are stuck wondering if they'll ever get to fly again for a living.
I understand that when I go into a casino the odds are on the house. But I still like to gamble...because it’s fun and sometimes you win. Aviation is like that, but so far I've seen the way to beat the odds is have a little faith, follow your heart, marry the right person, and work like hell when you get the chance. I know there are a lot of losers in this game, but don't forget that there are guys who went to med school to be surgeons that ended up doing something much less lucrative and enjoyable as a physician, and not every lawyer ever makes a killing in litigation. Bank officers, managers, and engineers come and go during business cycles too. An associate of mine from my town was a bank president--three years ago I was asking him for money for a farm. Since then, he lost his job, sold his home, and now is a renter looking for work and calling me for leads. It isn't just pilots who suffer the slings and arrows of fortune. Granted, not having a seniority system means when some start over they don't always go to the bottom, but ours is not the only industry littered with disappointments.
For me it was simple. I loved flying fighters, but I didn't like going into work every day. I loved fighting in jets, but also wanted to see a bit more of the world. I loved teaching others and serving as an officer, but also longed for the day that my work consisted of showing up, doing my job professionally, then hitting the "brain off" switch the moment the plane was safely stowed instead of worrying about 100 other things besides flying that were required by my job. Being an airline pilot gave me all of that, and I have never been happier in my life. I took a chance, gave it my best shot, and ran to a major the first chance I had. Now, 8 years into it, I see I was very fortunate and blessed by God. But for those on the sidelines--yeah--sometimes the story DOES work out. At least for me--the money spent on flying lessons at age 15, the years of adventure and moments of terror in the military, and the effort to prepare for the interview at a major all were worth the effort.
Now--living this life has a price, too. I love seeing Europe, but wish my wife and kids were with me when I was gone. I don't miss holidays...but there is a long list of missed plays, performances, etc along the way. But I have a great wife who has her own passions and is confident and secure enough to let me chase mine, so we work pretty well as a team. Not every spouse is like mine, and not every pilot wants what I want out of a career--but my friends in other lines of work miss events at times too when duty calls.
Finally--a great way to enjoy what you have is to have a backup plan. Build a savings nest when you can. Take a second job--in another field--and develop skills outside of aviation too. We are all just a bad class 1 physical from needing new work. For military guys--keeping one foot in the Guard or Reserves is good career insurance. Knowing you have a parachute can reduce some of the day to day stress in this industry. I know many folks want the lifestyle...a good salary and 15 days off a month. Since I joined the industry in 2002, I've never seen enough stability to make me comfortable putting all my eggs in one basket, so I have always tried to look for other ways to put bread on the table. In my case, a small business and the ANG were just the ticket, but everyone has got their own skill sets. I've met pilots in construction (slow now!), real estate (a gazillion of them) a few lawyers, some plane brokers and mechanics, and a handful of farmers. The common thread to each of these folks was that while they were busy they LOVED their airline job. Maybe doing something else reminds us of the good stuff about this flying and why we got into it in the first place.
In any case...if you are currently miserable...I'm sorry. I know a lot of things have happened that weren't your fault. If you like me are happy--count your blessings and try to share your gratitude. And if you are out there on the fence...there is still room for success, but it’s a tough road and you should be realistic. Like other posters...I see a rebounding economy, some retirements, and a few manning changes by the FAA all pointing to some potential openings in the next few years. If this is still your dream, I think you will have some opportunities.
It is not for everyone. DBTownley had a dream job at a major...but it turns out it wasn't his dream. I helped a guy leave John Travolta's pilot stable to join SWA...left a great corporate gig to sit reserve as a commuter. Another guy I know left working for Larry Ellison--where he had the key to the store to include some L-39s...to join an airline. If we all wanted the same thing it would be a miserable world. There isn't a "right" career path; there is only the path that is right for you.
One thing that folks forget is everything has a price. I flew fighters in the AF for many years before joining the airlines. The cost was a lot of work, time away from family, some increased risk, and the loss of a few friends. I also have met a lot of guys 5-10 years younger than me from ASA, Exp jet, etc that got here earlier...and some are even captains. I've seen guys junior to me in their 50s that came here from US Air. There are goods and bads to the choices we make, but in this industry there are so many "X" factor unknowns it makes choosing a course a very difficult proposition. Some guys jumped from the military before me--got furloughed at DAL, AAL, and UAL, and came back in via the ANG. Guys who stayed in to 20 in my peer group left the AF to find there were basically zero jobs in aviation at the moment...and now they are stuck wondering if they'll ever get to fly again for a living.
I understand that when I go into a casino the odds are on the house. But I still like to gamble...because it’s fun and sometimes you win. Aviation is like that, but so far I've seen the way to beat the odds is have a little faith, follow your heart, marry the right person, and work like hell when you get the chance. I know there are a lot of losers in this game, but don't forget that there are guys who went to med school to be surgeons that ended up doing something much less lucrative and enjoyable as a physician, and not every lawyer ever makes a killing in litigation. Bank officers, managers, and engineers come and go during business cycles too. An associate of mine from my town was a bank president--three years ago I was asking him for money for a farm. Since then, he lost his job, sold his home, and now is a renter looking for work and calling me for leads. It isn't just pilots who suffer the slings and arrows of fortune. Granted, not having a seniority system means when some start over they don't always go to the bottom, but ours is not the only industry littered with disappointments.
For me it was simple. I loved flying fighters, but I didn't like going into work every day. I loved fighting in jets, but also wanted to see a bit more of the world. I loved teaching others and serving as an officer, but also longed for the day that my work consisted of showing up, doing my job professionally, then hitting the "brain off" switch the moment the plane was safely stowed instead of worrying about 100 other things besides flying that were required by my job. Being an airline pilot gave me all of that, and I have never been happier in my life. I took a chance, gave it my best shot, and ran to a major the first chance I had. Now, 8 years into it, I see I was very fortunate and blessed by God. But for those on the sidelines--yeah--sometimes the story DOES work out. At least for me--the money spent on flying lessons at age 15, the years of adventure and moments of terror in the military, and the effort to prepare for the interview at a major all were worth the effort.
Now--living this life has a price, too. I love seeing Europe, but wish my wife and kids were with me when I was gone. I don't miss holidays...but there is a long list of missed plays, performances, etc along the way. But I have a great wife who has her own passions and is confident and secure enough to let me chase mine, so we work pretty well as a team. Not every spouse is like mine, and not every pilot wants what I want out of a career--but my friends in other lines of work miss events at times too when duty calls.
Finally--a great way to enjoy what you have is to have a backup plan. Build a savings nest when you can. Take a second job--in another field--and develop skills outside of aviation too. We are all just a bad class 1 physical from needing new work. For military guys--keeping one foot in the Guard or Reserves is good career insurance. Knowing you have a parachute can reduce some of the day to day stress in this industry. I know many folks want the lifestyle...a good salary and 15 days off a month. Since I joined the industry in 2002, I've never seen enough stability to make me comfortable putting all my eggs in one basket, so I have always tried to look for other ways to put bread on the table. In my case, a small business and the ANG were just the ticket, but everyone has got their own skill sets. I've met pilots in construction (slow now!), real estate (a gazillion of them) a few lawyers, some plane brokers and mechanics, and a handful of farmers. The common thread to each of these folks was that while they were busy they LOVED their airline job. Maybe doing something else reminds us of the good stuff about this flying and why we got into it in the first place.
In any case...if you are currently miserable...I'm sorry. I know a lot of things have happened that weren't your fault. If you like me are happy--count your blessings and try to share your gratitude. And if you are out there on the fence...there is still room for success, but it’s a tough road and you should be realistic. Like other posters...I see a rebounding economy, some retirements, and a few manning changes by the FAA all pointing to some potential openings in the next few years. If this is still your dream, I think you will have some opportunities.
11-19-2009 | 09:33 AM
#60
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 5,738
Likes: 5
From: Sleeping in the black swan’s nest.
I tend to remember contradictions for some reason. And you make some whopper contradictory statements. I don't think that you are a liar but I do think that you are very dramatic in your quest to find fault in the career that you failed in.
Hey you bring up some very valid points but you also discredit yourself with some of your tales of operatic style failure and unfair treatment as they are overblown, severely. My major problem with your whole story was the "couldn't buy an interview in the mid 90's" bit when the Majors were starting to hire by the thousands and qualified guys were getting called for interviews all the qualified guys except for poor little old Skyhigh.
I didn't know anybody at UAL I got an interview and got hired. No dad there, no uncle, and no friends as you are so fond of pointing out is the only way to get anywhere in this business. I also got hired at AWA and ATI before UAL. I get sick and tired of reading your uniformed and highly emoitionally distraught drivel at times.
I am LAX based what are you doing next week?
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