I believe all these stats are much more indicative of General Aviation Trends. ERAU, Purude, UND and other schools are experiencing growth, and many new universities are opening aviation programs. ATP is booming. It seems to me that there are more people pursuing commercial aviation than before.

First, I tried to be explicit in saying that I'M NOT AGREEING OR DISAGREEING WITH THE TREND. I'm not saying that we deserve the pay cut we've recieved.

I do disagree with a lot of the statements that I will attempt to paraphrase: "Computerized jets are just as hard to fly as the old stuff."

I think my biggest mistake was to compare a beech 18 to a 777. I think a better comparison would be a 707 to a 777. Many of you talked about being systems managers, having to deal with malfunctions, and being overall aware decision makers. I will argue that all that applied to 707 pilots, but they didn't have a beautifully engineering computer system to help them. They didn't have big glass moving maps to let them know exactly where they were and how they were oriented. Trend lines on their gages, Computer programs to calculate optimum cruise speeds and altitudes (which many pilots still ignore), ATC with more precise radar and better training, the list goes on.

Aircraft design companies have taken a lot of the the pilot-system interaction away. In older jets the computer wasn't gonna fix anything for you. Proof: A third individual was required in the cockpit because the workload was so much higher. My step-dad told me a story where he went into the tail of an older jet and jerry-rigged the APU contacts to get it to start so that they could start both of the mains and subsequently MEL the APU. I think you'd have a tough time doing that today. When something goes wrong, there isn't a lot we can do anymore. You may run a long checklist and call dispatch, but direct pilot intervention and creativity is diminishing.

Basically, The pilots of 707s DC-8s and the like had hundreds of lives in their hands, had less reliable aircraft and flew the same routes we do today. They didn't have computers to help them with situational and system awareness.

Again I'm NOT SAYING WHETHER OR NOT WE DESERVE LESS PAY! I'M NOT SAYING WE'RE UNSKILLED. I just think the lessened amount of required skill has left us with less to bring to the bargaining table.

 

Some things cycle others end. The long term trend for Aviation has been downwards since deregulation. Someday there will be more hiring but even during the best of times it wasn't that great. The best you can hope for is that conditions continue to deteriorate to the point where rational people walk away. I don't think you can begin to plan for retirement though.

SKyHigh

My aim is to provide the not so glamorous side of aviation. People can decide for themselves. Some however are unreachable. Especially those who think one of those over priced academies are a good idea. They are doomed from the start.

 

I won't argue with you there. But at the same time they are getting a degree. That in itself will cost them $40k in most places. So if you figure the other $60k is to get their ratings and time building... if they aren't getting all that... then they are getting a raw deal. Most of them need to find a great money manager and planner and setup a plan to get out of debt.

Not sure if you lumping ATP in that category. For me it's the best solution. Especially considering the cost of Multi-Engine time for 190 hours.

 

Skyhigh:

While I agree with a lot of what you say that disputes the high and unrealistic expectations that may be the downfall of many who can not see beyond the glossy magazine, I take exception to you saying that flying is not a real profession anymore.

Many people do thier skilled job because they like them, and are willing to put up with a lot of garbage they don't like. Whether they be a welder, plumber, etc.

I am not an airline pilot, and will not speak about the airline life like I know about it.

However, flying airplanes pays for my house, the food in my referigerator, and the funding to enjoy my life while meeting my obligations.
I find satisfaction in what I do, and am insulted by someone putting down how I make my living. I am sure there are airline pilots here who agree with that satement.

I have wanted to walk away before, but I will stay until I have no choice. That is my decision.

By the way--you will never see me looking at people roofing a building on a hot day and hear me say how stupid they are. I have respect for them.

 

Roofers, plumbers, police and firefighters have real jobs. They might have paid for some of their initial training but not a one of them would do it for free. Aviation isn't a real job anymore since the price of entry far out strips any financial benefits the career could offer. Pilots are lining up to do it more for the experience than for the real benefits it offers.

Today flying is more of a working hobby. No rational person with real income needs would consider it as a profession. I don't know what you do for a living. I was an Alaskan Bush pilot and did pretty well for myself. At 24 I was making more than most regional airline captains flying a 207. I was paid that much since few else would do the job so far off the map. It is possible to find pockets in aviation that pay better but most of the time there is a sacrifice associated with it.

The next time you run into a UPS delivery person ask them if they would still do the job if it required 4 years of college and 60K in additional training expenses while earning half of their current wage.

SKyHigh

 

There are volunteer firefighters and auxillary police officers, so yes, some people would do it for free.

EMTs where I live do not make very much money, and fair little better when they become a paramedic. They work like 24 hour or longer shifts where they sleep at the office. (They are not members of any firefighter's union, they work for a private company). Yet, many people have been there for years because it is a lifestyle. I know several police officers, and it is certainly a lifestyle for them because they live and breathe police work. Even though they could get shot on a minor traffic stop--they remain on their job.

I

 

Still though they are receiving something of equal or greater value (experience) and they don't have to pay for four years of college and flight training to do it. Ask them to spend the time in school and perhaps 100K in total education and training expenses and you would have a different response.

SkyHigh

 

Come back to us when you can fly an MD-11 with one engine, no FD, no AP and no AT

 

No auto pilot or auto throttles!? NOOOOOO!!!!

I have to do the redeye to Dublin tomorrow. The AP and AT better work. Plus, my steak and lobster better be good.

Last night (LAX-NYC) I did land right before a big thunderstorm went through. Gusty 22 knots crosswind, windshear (+/- 10 knots reported), and a full 757-200. I do earn what I make and I am worth more than I make.

 

I am sure that the AP and AT had a long night. Lets not forget to thank the FMS too. It is good that you can feel positive about yourself. Keep it up.

SkyHigh