Delta Pilots Association
10-30-2010 | 11:10 AM
#1931
No longer cares
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 12,109
Likes: 0
From: 767er Captain
WHAT ARE THE CHOICES T? I'll make it easy. There are 4 options:
1) Do nothing - ATA loves this option
2) Compromise and achieve 90% of what we want - the apparent ALPA approach
3) Go for a homerun, but risk a strike out - the apparent CAPA approach
4) Wish upon a star - the typical forum approach
I'll take option 2 every time.
1) Do nothing - ATA loves this option
2) Compromise and achieve 90% of what we want - the apparent ALPA approach
3) Go for a homerun, but risk a strike out - the apparent CAPA approach
4) Wish upon a star - the typical forum approach
I'll take option 2 every time.
Fine.. and I am gonna rub your nose in it when the companies are able to start driving us like regional carriers. Of course you are probably senior.. and don't commute... so none of this will affect you. typical.
There none so blind as those to refuse to see. Must be nice to wear your rose colored glasses all the time.
10-30-2010 | 11:24 AM
#1932
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 593
Likes: 0
Now I don't want to shock you, but sometimes political decisions are influenced by money, power, influence, and a variety of other factors that have nothing to do with what is the optimum solution. I know, we should all go watch "Mr. Smith Goes To Washington" to wipe the bad smell off this fact but it is a fact.
The legislation that set this review in process contained an exception clause for lower limits from authorized training. That exception was put into the legislation for a specific reason and by the urging of outside parties that are influencing political decisions with money, power, influence, and other factors. You may not like it, but you can either overthrow the government and set up your own perfect way of governing or you can deal with the world as it exists. You say ALPA's problems are because they deal with the world as it exists.
In this process, there is going to be some carve out for authorized training. If you don't believe that, then you must believe in the tooth fairy and Santa Claus. If you want to affect how that carve out will end up, you have to be in the room to the end. Otherwise, those people with more money, more power, and more influence will have all the say. You will have preserved your right to stand on the outside and throw rocks at the outcome, but you will have to accept that outcome just the same.
Now, Capt. Sullenburger, and the families of the Colgan flight, and many outside parties have the luxury to act indignant and stand on the outside and throw rocks. To a lesser extent, CAPA also has that luxury. They have that luxury because they know that ALPA will continue to fight for what is right, but will stay in the room and will be affecting the outcome all the way to the end, even if they have to compromise (gasp) because they are surrounded by people that have more money, more power, and more influence. The fact that we are even in the room at all, is a testament to the power of ALPA that they have gained by maintaining their credibility within the FAA and the government because they never take the quick easy step of standing on the outside and throwing rocks.
So I have to laugh at all the people who are on this webboard who have the luxury to sit on the outside and throw rocks at everyone including ALPA, because they will never have to live with the consequences of their bonehead ideas. They know that there will be other people, who instead of sitting on the sidelines and booing, actually get into the game and make a difference. So all you sideline warriors can boo and shout and call the quarterback a dunce, but until you get under center and take a few snaps, your opinion has little meaning.
I am sorry that ALPA does not have the money, power, and influence to remold the world in the way you would like. However, due to the continued hard work of the people who get in the game, they will continue to have affect far beyond what our money, power, and influence should actually allow. The webboard warriors will continue to laugh and them and call them names, but you are just armchair quarterbacks who do not get into the game. I have no interest in engaging the type of back and forth that is going on here, so Carl have your dunce-like comments in peace, but I wrote this for any normal people who may have waded through the pages of drivel here and perhaps would like a real world explanation of why compromise sucks but it is the only path in an imperfect world.
If only I were elected Omnipotent Ruler of the Universe, I would fix everything just the way it should be. Election day is Tuesday, vote early and often.
The legislation that set this review in process contained an exception clause for lower limits from authorized training. That exception was put into the legislation for a specific reason and by the urging of outside parties that are influencing political decisions with money, power, influence, and other factors. You may not like it, but you can either overthrow the government and set up your own perfect way of governing or you can deal with the world as it exists. You say ALPA's problems are because they deal with the world as it exists.
In this process, there is going to be some carve out for authorized training. If you don't believe that, then you must believe in the tooth fairy and Santa Claus. If you want to affect how that carve out will end up, you have to be in the room to the end. Otherwise, those people with more money, more power, and more influence will have all the say. You will have preserved your right to stand on the outside and throw rocks at the outcome, but you will have to accept that outcome just the same.
Now, Capt. Sullenburger, and the families of the Colgan flight, and many outside parties have the luxury to act indignant and stand on the outside and throw rocks. To a lesser extent, CAPA also has that luxury. They have that luxury because they know that ALPA will continue to fight for what is right, but will stay in the room and will be affecting the outcome all the way to the end, even if they have to compromise (gasp) because they are surrounded by people that have more money, more power, and more influence. The fact that we are even in the room at all, is a testament to the power of ALPA that they have gained by maintaining their credibility within the FAA and the government because they never take the quick easy step of standing on the outside and throwing rocks.
So I have to laugh at all the people who are on this webboard who have the luxury to sit on the outside and throw rocks at everyone including ALPA, because they will never have to live with the consequences of their bonehead ideas. They know that there will be other people, who instead of sitting on the sidelines and booing, actually get into the game and make a difference. So all you sideline warriors can boo and shout and call the quarterback a dunce, but until you get under center and take a few snaps, your opinion has little meaning.
I am sorry that ALPA does not have the money, power, and influence to remold the world in the way you would like. However, due to the continued hard work of the people who get in the game, they will continue to have affect far beyond what our money, power, and influence should actually allow. The webboard warriors will continue to laugh and them and call them names, but you are just armchair quarterbacks who do not get into the game. I have no interest in engaging the type of back and forth that is going on here, so Carl have your dunce-like comments in peace, but I wrote this for any normal people who may have waded through the pages of drivel here and perhaps would like a real world explanation of why compromise sucks but it is the only path in an imperfect world.
If only I were elected Omnipotent Ruler of the Universe, I would fix everything just the way it should be. Election day is Tuesday, vote early and often.
Well said!
10-30-2010 | 11:36 AM
#1933
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 593
Likes: 0
While I'm still not on board with DPA (yet), ALPA's position in support of a 500 hour minimum instead of a 1500 hour minimum has caused me to end my participation in ALPA PAC, after more than 20 years.
While I can see the need to have a voice in Washington, this isn't the kind of legislative influence that I'm willing to support.
While I can see the need to have a voice in Washington, this isn't the kind of legislative influence that I'm willing to support.
ALPA's position is that not only must there be more stringent requirements for hiring, but there has to be more stringent training. No more "warm bodies" in the seat.
We don't need to backwards engineer this. By that I mean pick an arbitrary number and then develop an argument around it. What we need to do is bring to light the short comings as they currently exist and make recommendations. By being a credible voice in the discussion ALPA can bring reasoned, logical arguments that will be heard and will take us to where we need to be.
Here are some of ALPA's recommendations:
1. All airlines’ initial pilot training programs should provide sufficient training in the classroom and simulator to provide pilots with the knowledge and skills necessary to perform proficiently prior to initial operating experience (IOE).
2. Airlines should replace one-size-fits-all training with individualized training that focuses on students’ weaknesses and compensates for their varied backgrounds.
3. Regulators should ensure that airlines are training their pilots to proficiency in the following areas, which have been identified as particularly problematic for low experience pilots:
a. The ability to receive and transmit radio communications with ATC at high traffic-density airports.
b. The ability to maintain situational awareness of aircraft status and position, meteorological conditions, and proximity to other aircraft when accomplishing multiple tasks during high-workload environments and while performing irregular or emergency procedures.
c. The ability to achieve a stabilized approach by maintaining strict airspeed and vertical path limits when ATC gives a clearance to conduct a visual approach.
d. The ability to react and improvise within the limitations of the aircraft in order to accept changes from ATC or as dictated by meteorological conditions.
4. Regulators should implement more rigorous academic requirements, including multiple aeronautical knowledge exams to ensure adequate knowledge in all appropriate facets of aviation (e.g., weather, aerodynamics, weight and balance, etc.) for a pilot to qualify as a first officer under FAR Part 121 or CAR 705.
5. FAA should eliminate the “SIC privileges only” rating.
6. First officers should be trained to the same standards and at the same intervals as captains.
7. Regulators should require airlines to develop and implement thorough screening processes to help ensure that those hired have the aptitude to maintain the highest levels of safety, professionalism, and performance.
8. Airlines should provide aircraft training and practice in both manual mode and in varying levels of automated flight modes. An educational focus on remaining vigilant to monitor, track, and manage automation when it is engaged is required.
9. Airlines should provide specific command training courses for new captains to instill in them the skills to lead on the flight deck. In addition to basic skills such as aeronautical decision making and crew resource management, new captains should receive training to reinforce the skills, aptitudes, judgment, and professionalism necessary to properly lead a crew, exercise command authority, and maintain the highest levels of safety in the face of internal or external pressures.
10. Regulators should require airlines to develop formal programs to mentor and assist in the career development of pilots.
11. More extensive initial airline indoctrination training programs, including additional
IOE and more frequent line observations are needed to mitigate the deficiencies that low-experience pilots exhibit.
12. Airlines should collect and analyze operational safety data specific to pilot experience levels on an ongoing basis to develop and implement appropriate training improvements proactively.
13. Regulators should increase the ground school and testing requirements to qualify to be an airline instructor. Airlines should develop and implement improved instructor screening processes and instructor training to ensure that motivated and highly skilled instructors are provided to train their line pilots.
14. Regulators should require that airlines employ a director of Pilot Training who is specifically responsible for the functions, content, and direct oversight of the pilot training program.
15. Regulators should ensure that there is an adequate surveillance and audit program conducted by mainline carriers when they utilize regional airlines in a code-share agreement. This surveillance and audit system should ensure that pilot training by the regional code-share partner produces proficient, professional pilots.
16. Regulators should require airlines to incorporate Safety Management Systems
(SMS) to help cultivate an appropriate safety culture that encourages quality pilot training.
17. Training providers that offer flight training programs designed for individuals pursuing a career as an airline pilot should incorporate the following into their curriculum:
a. Multi-crew training, including crew resource management, in advanced aircraft with advanced avionics and other aircraft systems (e.g., FMS, turbine systems, aircraft controls, automation, etc.).
b. Sufficient actual aircraft flight time to develop good communication skills with ATC and the ability to demonstrate good aviating skills in the real world.
c. Transition training from piston-aircraft to transport-category turbojet aircraft, as needed.
d. A strong career track for instructors within their organizations resulting in the hiring and retention of skilled instructors.
18. Regulators, airlines, and training providers should, in consultation with official pilot representatives of pilot representative associations, develop training curriculums that focus on proficiency and academics rather than hour-based licensing minimums.
19. Regulators should require airlines to have a direct link with FTOs providing competency- based (e.g., MPL) training or its equivalent to pilots they plan to employ at the completion of the training program. This link must result in use of that airline’s operating procedures and aircraft equipment throughout the training.
20. When training relies primarily on flight simulators, regulators should require motion in the simulators when used for flight training credited toward a pilot certificate, rating or currency, as appropriate to the task. Simulator manufacturers and aircraft manufacturers should collaborate to enhance simulator fidelity in regimes outside normal flight so that maneuvers such as aerodynamic stalls can be trained, practiced, and evaluated in a realistic manner.
Last edited by Reroute; 10-30-2010 at 11:51 AM.
10-30-2010 | 11:41 AM
#1934
No longer cares
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 12,109
Likes: 0
From: 767er Captain
Now I don't want to shock you, but sometimes political decisions are influenced by money, power, influence, and a variety of other factors that have nothing to do with what is the optimum solution. I know, we should all go watch "Mr. Smith Goes To Washington" to wipe the bad smell off this fact but it is a fact.
The legislation that set this review in process contained an exception clause for lower limits from authorized training. That exception was put into the legislation for a specific reason and by the urging of outside parties that are influencing political decisions with money, power, influence, and other factors. You may not like it, but you can either overthrow the government and set up your own perfect way of governing or you can deal with the world as it exists. You say ALPA's problems are because they deal with the world as it exists.
In this process, there is going to be some carve out for authorized training. If you don't believe that, then you must believe in the tooth fairy and Santa Claus. If you want to affect how that carve out will end up, you have to be in the room to the end. Otherwise, those people with more money, more power, and more influence will have all the say. You will have preserved your right to stand on the outside and throw rocks at the outcome, but you will have to accept that outcome just the same.
Now, Capt. Sullenburger, and the families of the Colgan flight, and many outside parties have the luxury to act indignant and stand on the outside and throw rocks. To a lesser extent, CAPA also has that luxury. They have that luxury because they know that ALPA will continue to fight for what is right, but will stay in the room and will be affecting the outcome all the way to the end, even if they have to compromise (gasp) because they are surrounded by people that have more money, more power, and more influence. The fact that we are even in the room at all, is a testament to the power of ALPA that they have gained by maintaining their credibility within the FAA and the government because they never take the quick easy step of standing on the outside and throwing rocks.
So I have to laugh at all the people who are on this webboard who have the luxury to sit on the outside and throw rocks at everyone including ALPA, because they will never have to live with the consequences of their bonehead ideas. They know that there will be other people, who instead of sitting on the sidelines and booing, actually get into the game and make a difference. So all you sideline warriors can boo and shout and call the quarterback a dunce, but until you get under center and take a few snaps, your opinion has little meaning.
I am sorry that ALPA does not have the money, power, and influence to remold the world in the way you would like. However, due to the continued hard work of the people who get in the game, they will continue to have affect far beyond what our money, power, and influence should actually allow. The webboard warriors will continue to laugh and them and call them names, but you are just armchair quarterbacks who do not get into the game. I have no interest in engaging the type of back and forth that is going on here, so Carl have your dunce-like comments in peace, but I wrote this for any normal people who may have waded through the pages of drivel here and perhaps would like a real world explanation of why compromise sucks but it is the only path in an imperfect world.
If only I were elected Omnipotent Ruler of the Universe, I would fix everything just the way it should be. Election day is Tuesday, vote early and often.
The legislation that set this review in process contained an exception clause for lower limits from authorized training. That exception was put into the legislation for a specific reason and by the urging of outside parties that are influencing political decisions with money, power, influence, and other factors. You may not like it, but you can either overthrow the government and set up your own perfect way of governing or you can deal with the world as it exists. You say ALPA's problems are because they deal with the world as it exists.
In this process, there is going to be some carve out for authorized training. If you don't believe that, then you must believe in the tooth fairy and Santa Claus. If you want to affect how that carve out will end up, you have to be in the room to the end. Otherwise, those people with more money, more power, and more influence will have all the say. You will have preserved your right to stand on the outside and throw rocks at the outcome, but you will have to accept that outcome just the same.
Now, Capt. Sullenburger, and the families of the Colgan flight, and many outside parties have the luxury to act indignant and stand on the outside and throw rocks. To a lesser extent, CAPA also has that luxury. They have that luxury because they know that ALPA will continue to fight for what is right, but will stay in the room and will be affecting the outcome all the way to the end, even if they have to compromise (gasp) because they are surrounded by people that have more money, more power, and more influence. The fact that we are even in the room at all, is a testament to the power of ALPA that they have gained by maintaining their credibility within the FAA and the government because they never take the quick easy step of standing on the outside and throwing rocks.
So I have to laugh at all the people who are on this webboard who have the luxury to sit on the outside and throw rocks at everyone including ALPA, because they will never have to live with the consequences of their bonehead ideas. They know that there will be other people, who instead of sitting on the sidelines and booing, actually get into the game and make a difference. So all you sideline warriors can boo and shout and call the quarterback a dunce, but until you get under center and take a few snaps, your opinion has little meaning.
I am sorry that ALPA does not have the money, power, and influence to remold the world in the way you would like. However, due to the continued hard work of the people who get in the game, they will continue to have affect far beyond what our money, power, and influence should actually allow. The webboard warriors will continue to laugh and them and call them names, but you are just armchair quarterbacks who do not get into the game. I have no interest in engaging the type of back and forth that is going on here, so Carl have your dunce-like comments in peace, but I wrote this for any normal people who may have waded through the pages of drivel here and perhaps would like a real world explanation of why compromise sucks but it is the only path in an imperfect world.
If only I were elected Omnipotent Ruler of the Universe, I would fix everything just the way it should be. Election day is Tuesday, vote early and often.
10-30-2010 | 11:59 AM
#1937
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 369
Likes: 0
From: No to large RJs
Many of you would continue to support ALPA regardless of what they propose, good or bad, right or wrong. IMHO your allegiance is to ALPA and not the pilots of Delta. These are common sense issues, cut and dry, black and white. ALPA is trying to muddy the waters and you are supporting it. Aiding them rather than calling them out. Pat each other on the back and act like no one else understands or is informed, but the other side of the argument is intelligent and has had enough of this organization not representing its constituents. The time has come for all Delta Pilots to lead this industry out of the ALPA funk we have been in for the past decade.
10-30-2010 | 11:59 AM
#1938
No longer cares
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 12,109
Likes: 0
From: 767er Captain
And that's exactly what bothers me. The ALPA love fest crew finds it acceptable. Oh they will come on and say "get elected... get involved.. and change it from within..." but THAT is impossible. And the really pathetic thing is that they all know it.
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