Originally Posted by Jabberwock

Can I go on record and state, I don't care about how we arrive at some version of C2K pay rates fifteen years later? We need to let go of the past boys. As Bruce Springsteen sang, "those jobs are goin' boys and they ain't coming back."

We are not going to restore our pay because we've outsourced a considerable amount of our bargaining leverage. We've already sold that flying and since we are not taking it back, we can't sell it again. When you count code share and Connection, we perform a minority of Delta flying. Like Lufthansia, SwissAir, and Air Canada, we don't have a monopoly on our company's labor any more. At some point our threat to strike will be met with giggles.

Might as well face it, without leverage, we will get some version of a reasonable raise increase, in line with the Company's performance and market conditions (including representational losers, like US Air's crappy rates). Taking any positions before seeing what United/CAL and American's contract looks like is premature.

What we can, and should, focus on right now is scope. We need to build consensus in support of unity (all Delta flying performed by Delta pilots). Our best negotiating position is indicating to the company that we think our jobs have value.

That's the plan that will give us the leverage to achieve C2K rates and more.

Originally Posted by sailingfun

We have never seen any real retro pay in a contract. If the contract runs 5 years late which is fast looking at recent contracts it would mean the company having to write a 5.5 billion dollar check at contract signing. Not very likely.

Originally Posted by Pineapple Guy

Great point. So, please articulate for all of us just exactly what "historical landmark" qualities are present in the DAL pilot group? And what "projects" qualities are present in the AMR, CAL, and UAL pilot groups. I will absolutely agree that, assuming you can come up with that list, we can be paid 30-50% more than those groups, but if not, we're back to my first question. Why WOULD someone pay more?

Originally Posted by Carl Spackler

And I've heard fire will cost God 4 Billion dollars per year if He gave it to us. We wouldn't want to strangle that goose now would we?

Carl

Originally Posted by acl65pilot

Carl;
Here is a link to my initial post I posted for DAL88. Initial public math and questions that need to be answered.

Not backing up at all. Restoration as DAL88 sells it is just that, C2K 2004 rates plus inflation of the DAL (not NWA) PWA. Keep in mind that these number below are for rates, not work rules, retirement, sick leave, vacation, etc. Just the hourly rate.

http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/875464-post48412.html

Here is the Inflation YOY since 2004:
Historical Inflation data from 1914 to the present

Put the link so you can verify the source

2004: 2.68
2005: 3.39
2006: 3.24
2007: 2.85
2008: 3.85
2009: -0.34

For a grand total of 15.67% total inflation since the start of 2004. (liner non compounding math used.) Compounding annually equals about 16.61%

So what you are asking for on Jan 1, 2013 is this:
Lets use 2012 777/744A pay and compare it to 2004 C2K 777 pay of 319 an hr

319-225= 94 dollars per hr up front plus a 15.67% increase on the 319 figure to equal 368.99 per hr from our book of 225, or a 64% increase, correct? (or 65%)

Math 319-225= 94 bump plus inflation=
319x 1.1567=368.99 per hr (or the other way 371.99 per hr)
368.99-225.00= 143.99 per hr immediate increase. (371.99-225= 146.99)

Lets just extrapolate that out a little as well. 5% last year was equal to 90 million. 4% next year is equal to 75 million. Without computing the non-linear data for the next two pay bumps that would equate to a 18-18.75 million dollar per percent increase in the total value of the PWA without costing out more retirement and or work rule improvements.

We on the same page?

We will use 18 million for a uber conservative estimate on pay costs alone.
18 x 64= 1.152 billion dollar increase to the PWA for hourly rates alone (or 18 x 65= 1.170 billion)

This is public math and I am doing it by had, but you get the point of what that is correct? It will equate to the total profit we will make this year and some more if we make another 600 million this year.

Before we discuss the merits and positions of the proposal I want to ask you a few questions:

1)How long you think it will take to get the company and a mediator to agree to releasing us for this amount on day one? five, six, seven years?

2)What is the inflationary rate going to do over this period now that we are coming out of a high debt recession for the us government?

3)How strong do you think these guys that will retire in 2019-2020 and before are going to be given that they may never see a penny of this?

4)Do you think that 50% of this group that will retire in that time frame is going to take a more pragmatic approach that will most definitely put more money in their pocket now so they can invest it correctly in a boom cycle?

5) Where do you see the economy in this time frame (2017-2020) given our boom/bust cycle? Do you see it as an era that will allow an end game to be played out?

6) Who is going to be in the White House?

7) Is foreign ownership going to change the game completely?



Just questions I want answered before I sign on to any proposal?

Originally Posted by newKnow

But, if God gives it to the bears first, the noose is loosened, and the goose lives to fight/fly another day. <Honk! Honk!>

Originally Posted by Carl Spackler

It is exactly this level of cowardice that we should all fight against.

I truly believe that your view is a minority one. You're typical of the very junior pilot who never knew anything close to C2K rates, thus you never knew what a 50% pay cut felt like. Inflation based increases from here feel great to you.

We're going to bring the profession back to where it was a decade ago...despite your best efforts.

Carl

Originally Posted by Carl Spackler

We're going to bring the profession back to where it was a decade ago...despite your best efforts.

Carl

Originally Posted by sailingfun

Carl, The retro pay I have seen has always been just a few percent. I believe that was also the case at NWA. Normally a very small raise is applied at the amendable date and then a larger raise at the signing date. Even then often the retro is listed as a signing bonus. That means that pilots no longer on the property don't see any of it. Since the pilots voting don't usually care the signing bonus passes.

Originally Posted by Bucking Bar

OK, how? You got no unity (50% outsourced), you got nothing to sell. What leverage do you have?

Originally Posted by Bucking Bar

Carl ... they got a saying for this in Texas. "All hat, no cattle."

Originally Posted by Bucking Bar

Jabberwock is telling you HOW to reach your goal. Read his post again.

Originally Posted by Jabberwock

Can I go on record and state, I don't care about how we arrive at some version of C2K pay rates fifteen years later? We need to let go of the past boys. As Bruce Springsteen sang, "those jobs are goin' boys and they ain't coming back."

Originally Posted by Jabberwock

We are not going to restore our pay because we've outsourced a considerable amount of our bargaining leverage. We've already sold that flying and since we are not taking it back, we can't sell it again. When you count code share and Connection, we perform a minority of Delta flying. Like Lufthansia, SwissAir, and Air Canada, we don't have a monopoly on our company's labor any more. At some point our threat to strike will be met with giggles.

Originally Posted by Jabberwock

Might as well face it, without leverage, we will get some version of a reasonable raise increase, in line with the Company's performance and market conditions (including representational losers, like US Air's crappy rates). Taking any positions before seeing what United/CAL and American's contract looks like is premature.