tsquare

I never said that, but it is not any more so than in years past. What I am saying is exactly the opposite, which you guys ALWAYS use as justification to allow the same mediocrity to continue. It IS the most important contract in our careers because it is the NEXT contract of our careers. Your arguments that this is the real reason to allow alpa to continue down the path they are on is hollow at best.. defeatist at worst. As I have said many times, my beef is with national. I think you tend to overemphasize the importance of that group. I am just not afraid to try something new.

DAL 88 Driver

It was a thing of beauty... or horror. Depends on your perspective, I guess.

sailingfun

I was here for all of that. I never saw any scare tactics from DALPA. I thought the road shows presented a fairly balanced pros and cons. The same with the joint contract. Of LOA 46, the 1113 contract and the joint contract I voted no on 2 out of 3 based on the information from the union. Sadly I did not get my way on the 1113 and joint contract.
Just because the votes went against me on those contracts I have never felt the need that many on here seem to have to start name calling those who voted different from their wishes. Each pilot read the contracts, listened to the roadshows and other information and made a decision that he felt was best for himself and his family.

Pineapple Guy

But I was.

And I disagree.

The agreements were judged on their own merit, in my opinion. But why would the LEC reps who voted UNANIMOUSLY for approval then turn around and recommend you vote against it?

I understand, DAL88, that any contract that doesn't have C2K+ will likely result in a NO vote from you. I also know tsquare will vote NO regardless, because he's already said so. Having said that, there are 12,000 others who also get to vote and it is insulting to say anyone who doesn't see this your way is wrong.

tsquare

But the 12,000 individuals are interested in the same 4 or 5 things... Pay... scope... retirement... the reserve system... so the 12,000 differing opinions is a bad metric. DALPA knows this. they know that they only have to convince the majority that they have delivered on (whatever they determine is) the most important issue.. and I will guarantee you that it is $$$$$. Ask yourself what is the very first thing you look at on a TA. If you don't say section 3.. you are a stronger man than I. It's human nature. So if they can give the impression that they have delivered there.. to the majority.. it will pass. That's not to say that folks don't read the contract.. but I'll bet the vast majority really don't. So yes, it is democratic... I guess... and I am not saying that they are charlatans. I just think that when it comes to the bigger association, it is a beast that lives to eat.

tsquare

Bullplop. They ALWAYS say "guys.. this is the best deal we're gonna get" And as an aside, when guys ask what will happen if it gets rejected, they ALWAYS say that the negotiators will be fired, and that we will have to go back to square one with negotiations... blah blah... that's not scare tactics? really? As far as balanced presentation... YGTBKM. I haven't seen a con paper since the early 90s. Their road shows.. their spin. No opposing views. They are as balanced as CNN.

Pineapple Guy

So, by your own words, the majority aren't smart enough (unlike you) to look beyond Section 3 to decide whether the contract should pass?

And you call ME arrogant?

sailingfun

Exactly! Pilots are smart enough to read the agreements and make their own choices. If a MEC ever brings me a contract they can't stand behind and support I will be the first in line to recall my reps.

tsquare

Nice spin... I never said that. I said that guys don't read the whole thing with the same fervor. Section 3 is by far the easiest thing to understand in a TA. That's where the majority of guys go first. Trying to decipher scope and all the lawyer language is very difficult. Then there's the rat's maze of section 23. We are STILL having to ask how what should be simple processes are carried out in a contract that is... how old now? And maybe arrogant was a little strong. Naive might be a better description because you firmly believe that alpa is infallible and irreplaceable.

tsquare

Well of course they are gonna stand behind it... THEY WROTE IT. I would be right there with you to recall them if they brought us something else too... So now begs the question: Why have any road shows at all? After all, when they are bringing us a TA.. "it's the best we're gonna get" so why have road shows to explain it.... better yet.. why have MEMRAT?