That's right! We have a better contract, and are in a better position to improve it. Blame ALPA for that.

We reference the other independents because their "success" at getting a better contract and protecting the profession should change this comment: "But I don't see where it could be any worse, and my judgment is that it is very likely to be considerably better."

Is your judgement based on their track record? Or is it based more on being the only alternative to ALPA? If it's the former, we have something to measure. If it's the latter, then you're going to have to come to grips with the measurements in the former.

 

Yes, I did, and only after getting the door slammed in my face in 2001. It is called patience, dealing with what is in front of me, and not trying to change the past, but forge a new future.
As for the second part, I have no issue rocking the boat, and speak my mind to anyone who listens, but I respect the process and realize I am one voice out of 12,300 pilots. That is the reality. I do not pick up my toys and go home when I do not get my way. I am used to the word, "NO," but I do not see that as a deterrence to doing the pilots work, nor working to better our careers.
By the way, you are doing poorly, and another mischaracterization of reality.

Reality is that I hear the same thing from this group of sellouts you claim occupy our MEC offices. We all want the same things, we just differ on who can get their the quickest and then sustain it. Big difference.

[quote]
This is all a big load of crap. Sorry. We've been out of bankruptcy for almost half a decade. And yet we're still being compensated as if we are still in bankruptcy and in danger of liquidation. This is a no brainer. The right thing to do is to increase our compensation NOW to bring it to an appropriate level. SWA, as our soon to be biggest competitor in ATL, provides a decent benchmark for what the market will bear for pilots in the airline industry TODAY. This shouldn't be our ultimate objective. But it would be a good start... a partial pay restoration that would bring our average W-2's in line with the W-2's of SWA pilots. I cannot think of ANY valid reason why ALPA would not be pursuing this ASAP. Heck, we even had a couple of resolutions passed to this effect. And ALPA basically ignored them! If the company says yes, then we get a good start towards restoration. If they say no, then we know where we stand, what kind of management we're really dealing with, and how to better proceed going forward. Instead, you ask us to all put our careers and our family's financial futures in the hands of what some other pilot group may or may not do? You're going to pin all our hopes to "pattern bargaining" and how it might benefit us 2 or 3 years from now? Holy cow! What are you thinking, man?? I want the people representing me to be advocating that we are compensated appropriately and that Delta pilots fly Delta passengers. The best way for this profession to be advanced is for the largest airline pilot group to achieve restoration. This kumbaya, group hug stuff you're advocating for our entire profession is just not going to translate into real results... for the pilots. It might for ALPA, the organization/business. But not for the pilots.[quote]
You ever think that a mid term agreement may sell you short of what your potential is, and what you could get in section six?
Another question. What do you think will make DAL management just throw money at this group when we are under an agreement that is not amendable?
If they did, do you think it may quell the angst of this group to the point of being ineffective when we are in section six?
I would bet that a mid term adjustment my be like adding cold water to a pot getting ready to simmer. Might just put too much of the fire out. Just remember that if we get a mid term agreement and then UCAL and APA get agreements that leap frog ours. We jumped up and then darn it, they patterned up on us!

You want Dots, those are dot you need to consider. I also wonder, a few months ago you were ranting about restoration or bust, not you are talking about a mid term. To me you seem like you are willing to accept just about anything to further the ball down the field. Sure glad the guys in ALPA are not willing to sell our pilots short like that.

 

I hope the crowd control manual was at least able to tell the difference between "affect" and "effect," unlike Karnak.

 

Seriously Carl, I much prefer to fly 12 day trips to Asia than to have a "career" in ALPA. In fact, having a so called career in ALPA is the furthest thing from my mind.

My goals are:
Get you and this group to realize that DPA or the like will result in negative gains versus what ALPA can do over the course of my career and in reality yours.

Get a great contract that my wife can stay at home on

Move to a place that is the best location for my family.

No where is there a plan for a career in ALPA. I fly airplanes for a living, and do ALPA work because I am passionate about our future. I know it is hard for many to not think about what is best for me, but I am of the school of though that if it is good for you, it must be good for me. Crazy, I know, but them the facts. So quit the character assassinations when you know they are way off the mark.

 

Horse malarkey. No where has ALPA ever said that they want RJ's over mainline. Heck we are worth more silly. What ALPA has said is simple. We desire to represent the trade/profession of professional pilots. That means everything from Bear Skin to DALPA pilots. Small to large, unified we stand, and divided we fall.

This idea of DPA or an independent worked for APA because it was in teh 1960's and it will not work today. Too much power building would need to take place, and not enough time or resources. It was done in a regulated market.
As for FedEx, the thought outside of the box, agreed to pay and a few others things, left scheduling alone knowing that in August the whole thing would be thrown out with the new FAR117 being enacted. If guys have a problem with it, they can vote NO. Again, letting the process work. A tried and true process.

FedEx ALPA is telling their guys why they did it, giving the rationale for it, and if their pilots do not buy it, so be it. That is the process. It does not mean because they do not get their way, they take their toys and go home, build their own sandbox and make beleive that everything is better because they are part of a group that thinks just like them. You hate group think and here you are advocating isolationism and group think.

 

Thanks! I was an Engineering major. I boned a few English majors, but their superior grammar had no affect on me.

 

You suggest an "organized takeover" of an existing organization. Well, that is reform of what we have, is it not? My point is do what you want with what we have, and if that is what you want, create your own Tea Party, and get Reps elected that will carry your will to the Master Level and the National level. That again is the process in action, and is what I have been stating is the direction we need to go in.[/QUOTE]


ACL;

I am guardedly optimistic (almost in agreement) with what you say in this blurb. The guarded part is that in most of the time I have been at Delta, ALPA has been a disappointment. DALPA also has had a fairly large number of disappointing moments too.

I have seen a change of course lately...the cynic in me says it is because of the DPA drive. The optimist in me says it is because the reps are listening. So, I am guardedly optimistic.

I dont have any personal fear of going with an in-house union. There continue to be litmus tests that the reps have to pass, but there has definitely been progress.

 

I would never demand any such thing. I would hope you'd see the efforts of our new union totally focused on Delta pilots as a good thing and you'd be a supporter by seeing the results. If you didn't I would try harder. That's what I do in my business and that's why it's a success.

As stated above, they will undoubtedly think unity is important. They will want to earn that through deeds, not demand it because their failures require pleading for unity.

Carl

 

The problem I see is that your "mind" appears to be part of the collective now. At least that is what you are speaking here these days. ALPA talking point after ALPA talking point. Not at all the way you sounded just a little over a year ago. Sorry, but other than some lip service here and there, I have seen very little change in ALPA. Your thoughts, however, are another story. A lot of change there.

Sorry, but I've got to come back to good old, basic, common sense and time tested successful practices. You don't reach your goal in any business or organization without first identifying it and clearly communicating it so that everyone is on the same page. ALPA has failed miserably in this extremely important first step.

No. Anything we could get "mid term" just raises the bar and makes a lower percentage needed to achieve in Section 6. Plus, it does one other very important thing (well, actually a couple of things). 1) It let's all concerned parties (including even those in our own pilot group) know that we do not consider our current level of compensation some kind of new baseline. 2) It gives us a chance to evaluate the "relationship" that ALPA worked so hard to build with management during the Lee Moak era. With bankruptcy and the threat of liquidation long behind us, our current bankruptcy/emergency compensation is clearly inappropriate. Correcting this is simply the right thing to do on the part of management. Let's press to test on this and see if this "relationship" is legitimate or not. If they agree, then we all have more much needed money for our families and a better base from which to start Section 6. If they refuse, then we have a better idea of what we are dealing with and how to proceed going forward.

See my comments above.

This is just my opinion, but I think that is a real stretch. As I said above, I see no downside to asking for a mid contract partial pay restoration. In fact, I only see upside with this, one way or the other. And if we get something like SWA pay mid contract, and UCAL and APA leap frog us before our Section 6... well again I only see upside to that. This isn't a race! I don't care which pilot group is the highest paid at any particular point in time. I only care that we are compensated appropriately. If us getting a mid contract increase helps UCAL and APA to get better contracts, well then we will have helped ourselves with this whole pattern bargaining thing you seem to think is the only way to go. Your argument on this just doesn't make any sense to me at all.


That's about as intentional a misrepresentation as I've seen from you. Show me where I've "ranted" about "restoration or bust." (Hint: you aren't going to find it.) I've talked a lot about setting objectives and making sure that all of our actions are oriented around those objectives. I've pointed out how ALPA is failing miserably in this area. I've stated that I believe we've settled for agreements in the past that we should not have accepted. But that doesn't translate into "restoration or bust." Give me a break. Even you know better than that.

 

As always, you haven't a clue of what you're talking about. I came from NWA. A management group that constantly tried to crush its unions. We had to strike in order to get what we knew was fair. It was painful, but we did it with 100% unity.

In contrast, you've never struck and have always accepted the first offer. How shall we describe this "culture" Sailingfun??

Carl