Originally Posted by forgot to bid

With the AirTran and SWA deal, someone mentioned that the AirTran MEC wanted to send that staple agreement to the pilots for a vote with a no recommendation but that's not possible. So they had to vote it down.

Is that how the TA would work?

Because what if you don't like what either the NMB or company has put forth, instead of further compromising is it possible to say "we know the pilots will say no so fine, watch..." and send it off for a vote with a big not recommended on it?

I've got the Roar 44 flow chart here in front of me so I'm not talking about what steps occur because I have that to follow and I'm sure the NMB mediation is invoked and you go down that path. Just can you craft a final resolution you don't want the pilots to accept and send it off with a not recommended on it?

Originally Posted by Carl Spackler

Wow! From each according to his means, to each according to his needs...eh Bar?

Originally Posted by Bucking Bar

That isn't what I wrote.

Originally Posted by Bucking Bar

For the middle class to recover the over centralization of wealth which is being hoarded needs to get into the economy where it can be employed and multiplied.

Originally Posted by Bucking Bar

That isn't what I wrote.

But you highlight one of my problems with the DPA. Many supporters simply don't like unions.

You and I are labor. We benefit from our membership in a labor union.

Originally Posted by forgot to bid

And there's a lot of truth to that, but, there is a downside and possibly larger downside of not being able to tell if the survey results are disregarded in favor of the MEC's agenda.

I don't think that's going to happen, I really don't, but that door could be left ajar, even if only as a accusation, if there is not some sort of external mechanism to verify.

It could work out another way though too, what if 51% of the surveys are completed by a subgroup of pilots who'd throw everyone under the bus for the sake of a pay raise prior to their pending retirement. You surely want the union to act as a representative and kick that notion to the curb.

I see more downside in not doing it. Sure the company's negotiators can use it to their advantage but at the same time if the priorities are Scope, Pay, Work Rules they can go after the hotels and pick at work rules but in the end we still have to ratify the thing.

Originally Posted by Carl Spackler

This is a very critical point here FTB and one of the reasons that DALPA's lack of trust is so harmful now. Here's why: If many Delta pilots don't trust DALPA, but want to wait and see if the opener is weak before they do anything about it, it will be far too late. If the DALPA opener is weak, then they claim it's what the survey showed, it will make the DPA a moot point until the next contract. This is because the NMB would take a dim view of any negotiations whereby one party increased the desires shown in their opener.

If ALPA is not replaced prior to the exchange of Section 6 openers, trust is all we'll have to hope for because DALPA will NOT release the survey. If you love the opener, great. If you hate the opener, there's nothing you can do about it except understand that the final product will only be worse than the opener you hate.

Carl

Originally Posted by forgot to bid

And there's a lot of truth to that, but, there is a downside and possibly larger downside of not being able to tell if the survey results are disregarded in favor of the MEC's agenda.

I don't think that's going to happen, I really don't, but that door could be left ajar, even if only as a accusation, if there is not some sort of external mechanism to verify.

It could work out another way though too, what if 51% of the surveys are completed by a subgroup of pilots who'd throw everyone under the bus for the sake of a pay raise prior to their pending retirement. You surely want the union to act as a representative and kick that notion to the curb.

I see more downside in not doing it. Sure the company's negotiators can use it to their advantage but at the same time if the priorities are Scope, Pay, Work Rules they can go after the hotels and pick at work rules but in the end we still have to ratify the thing.

Originally Posted by capncrunch

We are partnered up with ALPA for this next contract negotiation. It is what it is. There is no way DPA will get voted in before. That being the case, ALPA can use this as an opportunity to show the membership they have brass and get us SWA +1. If they drop the ball, that will be the nail in ALPAs coffin. They'll have nobody to blame.

Originally Posted by FlyingViking

You might be right with respect to us being stuck with ALPA this time around. However, they will get us SWA-10, relax scope and still claim they did better than anyone else could have done. They will also claim that it was what the Delta pilots wanted.

We need some balls, and unfortunately neither ALPA nor the majority of us has enough of that to win this battle. Just like DPA I'm here for a long time, so I will just sit back and wait for this to pass and then make sure it never will again. Sad it is though...

Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp

I hope you are not right in regards to the first paragraph.

We are coming off of massive bankruptcy concessions. While I was not at the airline, those were the expectations that I came into this career with.

50% of our departures are not Delta mainline, and we are making late 80's pay rates. It's time for that to change.