Shiz, you remember [redacted, pm me] from college? Went to CAL then DAL? He once said he still has these type nightmares about being at CAL...



Now hopefully in time CAL will clean out the "WE DESERVE A PAY RAISE but I will most definitely fly for nearly free and stab everyone in the back because I believe in Gordon Bethune and Frank Lorenzo" crowd.

UAL might help them along in that department.

 

[/QUOTE=tsquare;912097]OK.. I am not really wanting to get involved in this discussion.. but I keep getting sucked in.. Do you have any hard proof that it is your campaign that has resulted in the stoppage of furloughs? Not sayin that that isn't the case, but I sense a bit of hyperbole here. I have no clue how things work at UPS, so I am a complete outsider here, but I think you need to be honest about the cause/effect of the campaign...[/QUOTE]


Tsquare,

We were faced with a threat of up to 300 furloughs. Everyone was asked to forgo open time (straight pick up) and JA (x1.5) except the bottom 300 (most in the bottom didn't pick up either). At UPS we traditionally man thin and pilots do (did) pick up a lot on their days off. It's a design I believe that works well for UPS. They don't have to hire as many pilots. I truly believe with the history of pilots here, UPS thought we would pick up excess. They counted on their (250 pilot) management group as well. The management group stepped up to the plate and have been flying to FAR mins at times. The pilot group got fed up and didn't pick up.

I honestly think things could have gotten a lot worse in total number of pilots furloughed had it not been for solidarity. I don't think it's hyperbole. We have a strange assortment of flying as well that I think was underestimated. Take a 12-14 day, around the world tour on a 747-400. Cut the staff down to the bone and take a sick call after the first leg in Hong Kong. It might take 2 or 3 reserve pilots to pick up the rest of it.

I think the bean counters at UPS thought they really could save more and at the same time our upper management types could have hostages going into future negotiations. They didn't get the savings but they now have their hostages.

I don't know how it is at DAL for a JA but there are a few circumstances where we are forced into it but for the most part we can say NO. If you can't at DAL you should at least think about not answering the phone.

I thank the senior guys at UPS. Yes they had a contractual right but most saw through UPS'S games. They've seen it before. We also put it in our contract that if we furloughed that the union would have the right to call for an open time ban.

 

Tsquare,

We were faced with a threat of up to 300 furloughs. Everyone was asked to forgo open time (straight pick up) and JA (x1.5) except the bottom 300 (most in the bottom didn't pick up either). At UPS we traditionally man thin and pilots do (did) pick up a lot on their days off. It's a design I believe that works well for UPS. They don't have to hire as many pilots. I truly believe with the history of pilots here, UPS thought we would pick up excess. They counted on their (250 pilot) management group as well. The management group stepped up to the plate and have been flying to FAR mins at times. The pilot group got fed up and didn't pick up.

I honestly think things could have gotten a lot worse in total number of pilots furloughed had it not been for solidarity. I don't think it's hyperbole. We have a strange assortment of flying as well that I think was underestimated. Take a 12-14 day, around the world tour on a 747-400. Cut the staff down to the bone and take a sick call after the first leg in Hong Kong. It might take 2 or 3 reserve pilots to pick up the rest of it.

I think the bean counters at UPS thought they really could save more and at the same time our upper management types could have hostages going into future negotiations. They didn't get the savings but they now have their hostages.

I don't know how it is at DAL for a JA but there are a few circumstances where we are forced into it but for the most part we can say NO. If you can't at DAL you should at least think about not answering the phone.

I thank the senior guys at UPS. Yes they had a contractual right but most saw through UPS'S games. They've seen it before. We also put it in our contract that if we furloughed that the union would have the right to call for an open time ban.[/QUOTE]

Maybe this something that should be fixed on the next contract in terms of how much open time is "available". Delta has the ability to change the Average Line Value on a month to month basis (although there is a contractual restriction on how high the yearly ALV can be) anywhere up to 81 hours. When it gets that high the Line Construction Window (how many hours are put in for a regular line holder) is +/- 7 hours so the company build much higher regular lines without penalty. In addition, reserves remain at a 70 hour guarantee no matter how high the ALV is. I'm not advocating picking up open time with guys on furlough (haven't been here long enough or senior enough to be pushed into making a decision) and I wouldn't pick up open time over the normal line value - but with the high variance in ALV where is a guy picking up overtime - someone who is a regular line holder, the ALV is low (say 72 with the LCW starting at 65), and he is "used" to getting more time on his line. I do agree that a guy boasting about 95-100 hours with guys on furlough needs to look at himself in the mirror - it's not as cut and dried as some would like to make it out to be.

 

You guys don't have something in your contract that says you have to be "available" to be junior manned? For example who watches the kids if you're gone.

The only way someone might be forced into a junior manning situation would be at the end of a trip. Other than that instance it is a voluntary junior manning. You don't have to answer the phone or return phone calls on your day off.

 

Not arrogant; just frustrated.
While I was furloughed I watched as the company struggled to staff the flights after having put too many pilots on the street. Most of the pilots were flying maximum time. JR Man events were at an all time high month after month. A lot of the JR man assignments would result in the company dropping a trip from that pilot's line later on in the month. They were robbing Peter to pay Paul. Reserves were flying almost every day. Add to that, our reserve language was changed to allow the company to move a reserve pilot's days off to accomodate an assignment. This made it so a reserve pilot couldn't plan anything on a day off. Everybody was miserable, including the furloughees, and it was because we didn't have enough pilots on the property. The company was happy, however. They were finding enough pilots to meet the completion requirements.
It made sense that if pilots only picked up JR man trips during irreg ops, and if pilots stopped making deals with the crewdesks while picking up open time, the company would have to re-evaluate the staffing. The union tried to tell the pilots that their actions were keeping the company from recalling some furloughees and staffing the company correctly. Unfortunately, this was one of the things that was used against us in the lawsuit. Most of the pilots understood the situation. There were still too many that chose to either ignore the message, or were disengaged from what was going on. I'm sure there were a few that needed to take advantage of the deals to take care of their own personal emergencies, and more power to them. I did have to sit through a couple of cockpit confessions where the pilots were convinced that if they hadn't taken the JR man assignments, they thought the company would go out of business.
They would point to the contract and say that since it was in the contract it must be alright. I would tell them that the contract was written pre-BK and that the company had perverted the interpretation to use the clause for normal staffing. That was not the original intent. They would say that the union has put out a message saying that JR man was OK to accept. I would tell them that that is the message that the union was required to put out per the lawsuit. It was not what the union was saying during that period before the recalls.
This thread was asking whether or not a person should pick up open time while there are pilots on furlough. I'm a little bit passionate about the subject, because I've seen some of the worst come out of our pilot group. I responded to one post where someone said that their union was telling them that it was alright. I chose to highlite my experience to show that the message may need some context. Sometimes a person has to take a look at everything that is going on around them in order to understand the message correctly.

I just reread my original post, and I see where I screwed up. In my post I said "everybody needs a picture drawn". That is what I wrote, but not what I meant. It was an unfortunate slip, and I can see where you would call me out as arrogant. What I meant to say is that there are some pilots that you just can't get through to. There will always be those pilots in every group who choose to act only for their own personal gain, or are too apathetic or too disengaged to truly understand how their actions may be affecting everybody else.

Hog

 

Zapata,

In my thread, I was responding to frmrdashtrash. I specifically asked which airline (since not everybody is a UA pilot, or even an ALPA pilot). I was trying to show that there may be a reason that the union is putting our that specific message. My intent was to show that the true meaning of the message may be different than what is on the face.

For whatever reason, you chose to insert yourself into the discussion. Yes, we can all agree we would like to see the final language before we sign a contract, and we would like to see most of the sections have iron-clad restrictions for every condition. We don't have that. Sometimes you don't realize the pitfalls of a particular contract section until it bites you. You seemed to take exception to my claim that pilots will rationalize their actions that may be detrimental to the pilot group by pointing to the contract, or in this case, pointing to a union message. In the absense of concrete and unambiguous language, I would hope that pilots would act in the best interest of the pilot group as a hole, as opposed to individual gain. You seemed to indicate that since there were no restrictions (in your contract, I guess), then you were free to do whatever you want. You are right. That statement seemed to highlite my point.

Hog

 

We do. I've never not been able to get out of one.

 

Equating a scab with a guy that picks up time with dudes on furlough diminishes the term "scab". Just like the term "hero" some words are becoming watered down. The two aren't even close.

 

I don't think shiz was referring to pilots picking up time as scabs. Now, I think that depending on the situation you could make the argument that picking up open time during furloughs is somewhere in between not being a scab and being one but I wouldn't use the word.

I think what Gus is saying is that to have that attitude you'd have to be like one of the 1983 'hires' or really anyone who shares their avaricious mindset that facilitates furloughs.
----

Ironically, I think some may equate being against picking up open time to being a, for lack of a better term, union thug. Not so. I lean heavily towards being pro industry and anti-union management than the other way around- but I'm never ever anti-employee.

If you're a company that doesn't care who you hire or about the people you hire than you are simply a ship without a rudder and no matter how could your maps and navigator are no mission will be accomplished effectively or efficiently. If that attitude trickles down to having employees who don't take care for each other then you're simply sinking and eventually you won't exist. Took Home Depot a while to realize that. Ask around town here and you'll find the management employees hated working there during Nardeli's tenure and they made a plethora of bean counter/anti-people moves that backfired on their quality and brand and allowed the now more customer centric and aggressive Lowe's to catch up and Nardeli was then pushed out- with his $200M+ parachute firmly intact. Interestingly I got to fly him as his law firm chartered our plane to go to NYC the week after he was fired.

IMO, I think you could even find that most JB pilots (assuming here) would be against picking up open time if they had pilots involuntarily furloughed and they don't even have a union.

It's not a union thing, it's a people thing.

 

I like how the scab word is now getting thrown out there, figured it would. These are the same people that watch the junior dudes at their company feed off the bottom for years on end. We are all in it together huh? Only when its convenient are we all together. Picking up open time is your business and your business only. Don't let someone who would "pull the ladder up" behind them in a heartbeat dictate your quality of life.