Odds of Delta TA passing
05-28-2012 | 07:06 AM
#81
Moderator
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 13,088
Likes: 0
From: B757/767
Bill,
So many conveniently forget that this TA allows 70 more 76 seat Small Jets, unlimited numbers of a 90 seat turbo props, and a carve out for RAH? These are not scope gains. These aircraft will result in stagnation and fragmentation.
We don't even know if the 717's are actually going to show up. That is open to debate. Even if they do show up, they may bring pilots with them. We don't know how many will be allowed to accept the early retirement and when they will leave. We don't know if they will be replaced.
There are just too many unknowns in this TA. We have learned from the past that unknowns don't usually work for our benefit. The Company will take full advantage of every lousy loophole in the agreement.
So many conveniently forget that this TA allows 70 more 76 seat Small Jets, unlimited numbers of a 90 seat turbo props, and a carve out for RAH? These are not scope gains. These aircraft will result in stagnation and fragmentation.
We don't even know if the 717's are actually going to show up. That is open to debate. Even if they do show up, they may bring pilots with them. We don't know how many will be allowed to accept the early retirement and when they will leave. We don't know if they will be replaced.
There are just too many unknowns in this TA. We have learned from the past that unknowns don't usually work for our benefit. The Company will take full advantage of every lousy loophole in the agreement.
This TA limits DCI HULLS( jets AND turboprops) at 450. Also it limits turboprops to 37 seats and a MGTOW of 37,000 lbs.
05-28-2012 | 07:23 AM
#83
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,518
Likes: 0
From: B737 CA
Slight tweak. The language was fine and our lawyers are fine. The problem was (and probably still is) that our lawyers practice politics first, then law.
One has to grasp the motivation for ALPA to partner with management in the outsourcing business. Once you understand, then the light will come on and you will understand the dynamics of our contract negotiations and the Company's decisions as well.
ALPA and Delta have partnered to outsource our work. What we gain is a percentage of money the company saves by not using us. So the equation is:
To get the lowest outsourced cost management and ALPA want the maximum number of cut rate competitors. That is why we stopped fighting the Republic arrangement. That is why there is no language to reduce the number of competitors (like a requirement that only ALPA pilots perform the work).
Additionally, when guys like me were at the regionals we wanted to establish our own scope to prevent whipsaw and cut rate competition from destroying our jobs (example .. Comair has been destroyed) The mainline MEC's did not want Regional Carriers striking deals directly with Delta and they used ALPA's exclusive right as a sole bargaining agent to block those efforts.
ALPA's attorneys know who signs their pay checks. If ALPA leadership does not want to reduce competition or allow regional scope then they find the legal tool to reach those political goals. The answer was their legal opinion that holding company language was not binding, using the reasoning that a non signatory third party could not be bound by a contract they did not agree to. (or something like that, the reasoning has always been a bit nebulous because it really is not accurate and the Reps who explain it are not attorneys ... it gets muddy) (apparently none of them belong to an HMO like ours
... we are third parties to the contract between UHC and Delta and UHC and your provider ... if you don't think you are bound .. think again)
Back when I ran litigation I would fire attorneys who lied to us. It is extremely dangerous to rely on Counsel who is telling you what you want to hear instead of the truth. In ALPA's case it could be argued that the majority of DFR litigation and quite a few of the strategic errors of the last decade was based on this single hinge point of legal reasoning (or justification).
Our current TA shows a slight evolutionary move in our holding company language. Our current Reps and Admin are mostly a generation removed from the manipulations necessary to create DCI, but some are still there. Whether or not they even understand the situation is an open question ... after all, they rely on their attorneys and their attorneys rely on the politicians. It is somewhat of a closed feedback loop.
------- How this applies to DPA --------
The DPA is an interesting political construct. It's leadership has taken the justifications which created this mess of outsourcing and actually believed them to be FACT. Even more dangerous than an attorney who lies to his client, is a client who believes those lies and acts on them.
ALPA did something that makes me angry. ALPA made the decision that some work was going to be outsourced. ALPA broke unity and ALPA ow has a decade long wake of tactical blunders resulting from the decision to outsource what became Delta Connection.
The DPA does something that scares me. They took ALPA's justifications and believed them. It is terrible to make the mistakes of the past a foundation for our future. ... and just as I wrote that, Carl gave me a beautiful example ...Delta is bound. Delta writes the checks and Delta makes the schedule. Delta certainly has the power to pull down a percentage of it's flying, as operated by third parties.
The irony is, the DPA believes the lies ALPA told them and uses them to justify removing ALPA. It's really kinda funny. It is rare to find such true irony. It would be a lot funnier if the Delta pay check wasn't used to pay the mortgage on my family's home.
One has to grasp the motivation for ALPA to partner with management in the outsourcing business. Once you understand, then the light will come on and you will understand the dynamics of our contract negotiations and the Company's decisions as well.
ALPA and Delta have partnered to outsource our work. What we gain is a percentage of money the company saves by not using us. So the equation is:
Mainline cost - Outsourced Cost = Extra Money for us
To get the lowest outsourced cost management and ALPA want the maximum number of cut rate competitors. That is why we stopped fighting the Republic arrangement. That is why there is no language to reduce the number of competitors (like a requirement that only ALPA pilots perform the work).
Additionally, when guys like me were at the regionals we wanted to establish our own scope to prevent whipsaw and cut rate competition from destroying our jobs (example .. Comair has been destroyed) The mainline MEC's did not want Regional Carriers striking deals directly with Delta and they used ALPA's exclusive right as a sole bargaining agent to block those efforts.
ALPA's attorneys know who signs their pay checks. If ALPA leadership does not want to reduce competition or allow regional scope then they find the legal tool to reach those political goals. The answer was their legal opinion that holding company language was not binding, using the reasoning that a non signatory third party could not be bound by a contract they did not agree to. (or something like that, the reasoning has always been a bit nebulous because it really is not accurate and the Reps who explain it are not attorneys ... it gets muddy) (apparently none of them belong to an HMO like ours
... we are third parties to the contract between UHC and Delta and UHC and your provider ... if you don't think you are bound .. think again)Back when I ran litigation I would fire attorneys who lied to us. It is extremely dangerous to rely on Counsel who is telling you what you want to hear instead of the truth. In ALPA's case it could be argued that the majority of DFR litigation and quite a few of the strategic errors of the last decade was based on this single hinge point of legal reasoning (or justification).
Our current TA shows a slight evolutionary move in our holding company language. Our current Reps and Admin are mostly a generation removed from the manipulations necessary to create DCI, but some are still there. Whether or not they even understand the situation is an open question ... after all, they rely on their attorneys and their attorneys rely on the politicians. It is somewhat of a closed feedback loop.
------- How this applies to DPA --------
The DPA is an interesting political construct. It's leadership has taken the justifications which created this mess of outsourcing and actually believed them to be FACT. Even more dangerous than an attorney who lies to his client, is a client who believes those lies and acts on them.
ALPA did something that makes me angry. ALPA made the decision that some work was going to be outsourced. ALPA broke unity and ALPA ow has a decade long wake of tactical blunders resulting from the decision to outsource what became Delta Connection.
The DPA does something that scares me. They took ALPA's justifications and believed them. It is terrible to make the mistakes of the past a foundation for our future. ... and just as I wrote that, Carl gave me a beautiful example ...Delta is bound. Delta writes the checks and Delta makes the schedule. Delta certainly has the power to pull down a percentage of it's flying, as operated by third parties.
The irony is, the DPA believes the lies ALPA told them and uses them to justify removing ALPA. It's really kinda funny. It is rare to find such true irony. It would be a lot funnier if the Delta pay check wasn't used to pay the mortgage on my family's home.
05-28-2012 | 08:19 AM
#84
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,253
Likes: 0
Wow just wow. I can't believe you guys are being bought by vgue SWA pay parity claims and DAL spin sponsored by ALPA. Then again I shouldn't be surprised given how screwed this profession has become. Jeff Sismek thanks you for the scope 'victory' you are achieving...
05-28-2012 | 08:21 AM
#85
Can't abide NAI
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 12,078
Likes: 15
From: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Intrepid,
Any suggestions other than vote "No" and enter holding until we see what you do?
Where are you at in your negotiations (serious question). Are we helping or hurting? Our 76 seat line is status quo for us.
Any suggestions other than vote "No" and enter holding until we see what you do?
Where are you at in your negotiations (serious question). Are we helping or hurting? Our 76 seat line is status quo for us.
05-28-2012 | 08:33 AM
#86
No longer cares
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 12,109
Likes: 0
From: 767er Captain
Bill,
So many conveniently forget that this TA allows 70 more 76 seat Small Jets, unlimited numbers of a 90 seat turbo props, and a carve out for RAH? These are not scope gains. These aircraft will result in stagnation and fragmentation.
We don't even know if the 717's are actually going to show up. That is open to debate. Even if they do show up, they may bring pilots with them. We don't know how many will be allowed to accept the early retirement and when they will leave. We don't know if they will be replaced.
There are just too many unknowns in this TA. We have learned from the past that unknowns don't usually work for our benefit. The Company will take full advantage of every lousy loophole in the agreement.
So many conveniently forget that this TA allows 70 more 76 seat Small Jets, unlimited numbers of a 90 seat turbo props, and a carve out for RAH? These are not scope gains. These aircraft will result in stagnation and fragmentation.
We don't even know if the 717's are actually going to show up. That is open to debate. Even if they do show up, they may bring pilots with them. We don't know how many will be allowed to accept the early retirement and when they will leave. We don't know if they will be replaced.
There are just too many unknowns in this TA. We have learned from the past that unknowns don't usually work for our benefit. The Company will take full advantage of every lousy loophole in the agreement.
05-28-2012 | 08:35 AM
#87
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 799
Likes: 0
The limit is only in place until our next contract. The trend line with this TA is scary. Our next TA in a few years will probably agree to park all of the 50 seaters in exchange for 450 70/76 seat jets. And if history repeats itself the ALPA marketing machine will be in full "SELL" mode once again.
One day the Delta pilots will get smacked in the face with a hard dose of reality, and it's gonna hurt, for many, many years. Entire domestic mainline outsourcing, that's managements goal!
One day the Delta pilots will get smacked in the face with a hard dose of reality, and it's gonna hurt, for many, many years. Entire domestic mainline outsourcing, that's managements goal!
05-28-2012 | 08:37 AM
#88
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 799
Likes: 0
Wow just wow. I can't believe you guys are being bought by vgue SWA pay parity claims and DAL spin sponsored by ALPA. Then again I shouldn't be surprised given how screwed this profession has become. Jeff Sismek thanks you for the scope 'victory' you are achieving...
05-28-2012 | 08:37 AM
#89
No longer cares
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 12,109
Likes: 0
From: 767er Captain
Wow just wow. I can't believe you guys are being bought by vgue SWA pay parity claims and DAL spin sponsored by ALPA. Then again I shouldn't be surprised given how screwed this profession has become. Jeff Sismek thanks you for the scope 'victory' you are achieving...
And why would Smisek be thanking us for the scope deal? It would mean that in order to pattern bargain he would have to put limits on HIS RJ flying.. but he is not worried though, the dysfunction at UCAL is palpable, and he knows that he won't have to worry about any of that for another 4-5 years.
05-28-2012 | 09:30 AM
#90
Moderator
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 13,088
Likes: 0
From: B757/767
The limit is only in place until our next contract. The trend line with this TA is scary. Our next TA in a few years will probably agree to park all of the 50 seaters in exchange for 450 70/76 seat jets. And if history repeats itself the ALPA marketing machine will be in full "SELL" mode once again.
One day the Delta pilots will get smacked in the face with a hard dose of reality, and it's gonna hurt, for many, many years. Entire domestic mainline outsourcing, that's managements goal!
One day the Delta pilots will get smacked in the face with a hard dose of reality, and it's gonna hurt, for many, many years. Entire domestic mainline outsourcing, that's managements goal!
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