DTW Roadshow
06-05-2012 | 05:21 PM
#151
On Reserve
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,886
Likes: 0
From: MSP7ERB
Ok.
At the risk of getting way off into hypothetical land, let's use some actual numbers from the TA. I will note my assumptions where applicable.
Delta 737-700/800 5-year FO rate on 1/1/2013 (1 day after our amendable date): $124.20
*I don't know what category you're in, but this seems a fair category to compare with a SWA FO. The numbers obviously get better or worse depending on longevity/category, but I digress....
Let's ASSUME an average of 80 hours/month which is definitely doable at straight pay for a lineholder, without stalking the swap board. ALPA says the "average" Delta pilot averages 87/month, so I'm undershooting by a whole lot here.
$124.20 x 80 hours = $9936/month
$9926 x 12 months = $119,232
Add in 14% DSPS/DC Contribution = $119,232 x 1.14 = $135,924.48
So, we have the day after our amendable date, a 5-year FO making about $4,000 less than your $140,000 figure. I'm not figuring in Distance Learning or any other pay/no credit item that will close the gap a little bit. SWAPA's number is subject to a bunch of assumptions as well, that I'm not privy to.
Is it close enough?
How about 1 year later on 1/1/2015 when pay goes up another 3% and DC bumps 1%? The Delta number (with another longevity step) = $144,778.56
I find the fascination with SWA pay interesting. Do we just want to be paid more than them for some competitive reason, or is being paid much better than we currently are okay too?
It seems to me that we're not that FAR off the mark. Consider the odds of dramatically exceeding the current offer in short order just because we "demand" it. I just don't see the unlikely payoff outweighing the risk. But that's just me
As always, I appreciate the civil discussion guys. We can disagree and still keep it clean!
At the risk of getting way off into hypothetical land, let's use some actual numbers from the TA. I will note my assumptions where applicable.
Delta 737-700/800 5-year FO rate on 1/1/2013 (1 day after our amendable date): $124.20
*I don't know what category you're in, but this seems a fair category to compare with a SWA FO. The numbers obviously get better or worse depending on longevity/category, but I digress....
Let's ASSUME an average of 80 hours/month which is definitely doable at straight pay for a lineholder, without stalking the swap board. ALPA says the "average" Delta pilot averages 87/month, so I'm undershooting by a whole lot here.
$124.20 x 80 hours = $9936/month
$9926 x 12 months = $119,232
Add in 14% DSPS/DC Contribution = $119,232 x 1.14 = $135,924.48
So, we have the day after our amendable date, a 5-year FO making about $4,000 less than your $140,000 figure. I'm not figuring in Distance Learning or any other pay/no credit item that will close the gap a little bit. SWAPA's number is subject to a bunch of assumptions as well, that I'm not privy to.
Is it close enough?
How about 1 year later on 1/1/2015 when pay goes up another 3% and DC bumps 1%? The Delta number (with another longevity step) = $144,778.56
I find the fascination with SWA pay interesting. Do we just want to be paid more than them for some competitive reason, or is being paid much better than we currently are okay too?
It seems to me that we're not that FAR off the mark. Consider the odds of dramatically exceeding the current offer in short order just because we "demand" it. I just don't see the unlikely payoff outweighing the risk. But that's just me
As always, I appreciate the civil discussion guys. We can disagree and still keep it clean!
Why do you find that fascination interesting? I would like equal pay for equal work.
I'll crunch the numbers again for myself. What was your survey input Leine? Does this TA meet anyof your survey goals?
06-05-2012 | 05:25 PM
#152
The Brown Dot +1
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 7,775
Likes: 0
From: 777B
And in my world it is not all take take take, I really don't know where you come up with that. I have been very clear that for me, it is the large RJs I am against. In Scambo's world, I'd be a yes if those came to DAL pilots EVEN AT DCI RATES.
I'm not trying to sell anyone on anything, but if you think that the twisted logic of concessions somehow not being concessions is the truth, then why should I care what you think.
06-05-2012 | 05:27 PM
#153
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,410
Likes: 1
From: Cockpit speaker volume knob set to eleven.
So you don't want th 717s which creates ML growth? You want to stay stagnate for another 5-10 yrs? Do you want the 50 seaters to go away now or 15 yrs from now? Do you want the company to continue to pay these expensive leases and maintenance costs which will cut far more than 2% into your profit sharing and also reduce your compensation? The money that could be going into our pocket will be going towards RJs that you could've gotten rid of but you chose to wait.
06-05-2012 | 05:49 PM
#154
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,206
Likes: 0
From: DAL FO
I would like that for MD-88/90 pay, but I see your point. My Delta pay right now is running about $80K.
Why do you find that fascination interesting? I would like equal pay for equal work.
I'll crunch the numbers again for myself. What was your survey input Leine? Does this TA meet anyof your survey goals?
Why do you find that fascination interesting? I would like equal pay for equal work.
I'll crunch the numbers again for myself. What was your survey input Leine? Does this TA meet anyof your survey goals?
Obviously my number was not met. Did I really think I'd see 38%? No
Did I think we'd have an agreement 6 months AHEAD of the amendable date? Not a chance.
I am usually on reserve (sometimes by choice, sometimes not) and the reserve guarantee bump also has to be considered a gain. I'm not trying to talk you into anything, just trying to consolidate my thoughts (I think, ha!)
Now that we have an offer on the table, I'm simply weighing what we have versus what I feel is achievable. There is no question that I want more money, and feel we deserve more money. I've come to the conclusion though that voting NO is not likely to get me any closer to that goal. In fact, it seems like if we take this fairly short-duration contract which adds almost 20% we might be able to pile some more on in short order.
I honestly thought that C2012 would turn out to be more like C2014, so I'm viewing this as almost as an extension. If we can add almost 20% every 2.5 years I'll be very happy with our position.
Just my thoughts
06-05-2012 | 05:51 PM
#155
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 12,823
Likes: 167
From: window seat
06-05-2012 | 06:05 PM
#156
Da Hudge
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,473
Likes: 0
From: Poodle Whisperer
Ok.
Delta 737-700/800 5-year FO rate on 1/1/2013 (1 day after our amendable date): $124.20
*I don't know what category you're in, but this seems a fair category to compare with a SWA FO. The numbers obviously get better or worse depending on longevity/category, but I digress....
Let's ASSUME an average of 80 hours/month which is definitely doable at straight pay for a lineholder, without stalking the swap board. ALPA says the "average" Delta pilot averages 87/month, so I'm undershooting by a whole lot here.
Delta 737-700/800 5-year FO rate on 1/1/2013 (1 day after our amendable date): $124.20
*I don't know what category you're in, but this seems a fair category to compare with a SWA FO. The numbers obviously get better or worse depending on longevity/category, but I digress....
Let's ASSUME an average of 80 hours/month which is definitely doable at straight pay for a lineholder, without stalking the swap board. ALPA says the "average" Delta pilot averages 87/month, so I'm undershooting by a whole lot here.
06-05-2012 | 06:10 PM
#157
Da Hudge
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,473
Likes: 0
From: Poodle Whisperer
So you don't want th 717s which creates ML growth? You want to stay stagnate for another 5-10 yrs? Do you want the 50 seaters to go away now or 15 yrs from now? Do you want the company to continue to pay these expensive leases and maintenance costs which will cut far more than 2% into your profit sharing and also reduce your compensation? The money that could be going into our pocket will be going towards RJs that you could've gotten rid of but you chose to wait.
I'd rather call the company's bluff, honestly.
06-05-2012 | 06:14 PM
#158
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,206
Likes: 0
From: DAL FO
I get what you're saying. Things will eventually start moving again. We also have the option to bid down to lower categories (you could've bid DC-9 FO in ATL) and fly more hours for more money.
I'm not saying it's perfect, just that we're not that far off from where everybody wants to be.
How many years of longevity does it take for the SWA guy to get to the $140k mark?
06-05-2012 | 06:26 PM
#159
The Brown Dot +1
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 7,775
Likes: 0
From: 777B
If you're gonna assume reserve then use 75.5/month average under the TA
I get what you're saying. Things will eventually start moving again. We also have the option to bid down to lower categories (you could've bid DC-9 FO in ATL) and fly more hours for more money.
I'm not saying it's perfect, just that we're not that far off from where everybody wants to be.
How many years of longevity does it take for the SWA guy to get to the $140k mark?
I get what you're saying. Things will eventually start moving again. We also have the option to bid down to lower categories (you could've bid DC-9 FO in ATL) and fly more hours for more money.
I'm not saying it's perfect, just that we're not that far off from where everybody wants to be.
How many years of longevity does it take for the SWA guy to get to the $140k mark?
This was from another thread posted by a SWA FO called Huron IP:
2007 hire FO. 136k last year plus another 5k in per diem.
68k so far this year as of May 20 plus 2k in per diem.
In his case it took 4 years.
06-05-2012 | 06:29 PM
#160
Da Hudge
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,473
Likes: 0
From: Poodle Whisperer
If you're gonna assume reserve then use 75.5/month average under the TA
I get what you're saying. Things will eventually start moving again. We also have the option to bid down to lower categories (you could've bid DC-9 FO in ATL) and fly more hours for more money.
I'm not saying it's perfect, just that we're not that far off from where everybody wants to be.
How many years of longevity does it take for the SWA guy to get to the $140k mark?
I get what you're saying. Things will eventually start moving again. We also have the option to bid down to lower categories (you could've bid DC-9 FO in ATL) and fly more hours for more money.
I'm not saying it's perfect, just that we're not that far off from where everybody wants to be.
How many years of longevity does it take for the SWA guy to get to the $140k mark?
This TA is a step in the right direction... kind of. Unfortunately, the new reserve rules will only serve to keep me from progressing for a while longer. The TA provides for continued exercise of capacity restraint and we kissed away another 300 mainline jobs with the new rules. Same with moving the line on jumbo RJs to allow more once again.
My peers at WN are at about 140k by 5 years, unfortunately. I had my best year at DL last year and was at 115k. I'm on pace for not making that this year (year 6).
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