tomgoodman

Actually, there IS a pilot watering hole there--the Billy Goat Tavern (lower Wacker @ Michigan). Former hangout of columnist Mike Royko and his pal, John Belushi, who modeled his SNL skit on the place. The former owner, Sam Sianis, had a pet billy goat which he tried to bring to a Cubs game at Wrigley Field many years ago. The goat was refused admission, causing Sam to place the infamous and dreadful "billy goat curse" on the Cubs.

exxcalibur11

"Cheezborger! Cheezborger! You want doublecheez?!? Who's next!?! WHO'S NEXT!?! "Don't look at the menu, look at ME! I order for you"

I stand corrected, but I think you get what I was trying to say in the first place.

I cant beleive that owner, and F'IN goat are the reason my Cubbies can't win

SkyHigh

Honestly I am not here to crush anyone's dreams. My aim is to inform others of the true price of their choice. It is easy to lie to ourselves in regards to aviation. I think it is important for everyone to take an honest stock of what they are sacrifying for and what their true returns will be.

Not everyone here will make make it to a FedEx, most will not. Your position might be that one "can" make it to their dreams and I would support that statement. My mission is to provide the information on what happens if you don't make it. What are the risks. Where will most of us end up? Unlike most other professions the investment required in aviation is very high. It takes a small fortune and many wasted years before one can even have the right to have their resume glanced at by a reputable company. Even then the odds of actually getting hired are very slim and getting slimmer every year, . In order to make an informed decision I think everyone even working pilots needs to know the risks and price they are paying.

Someone on this post mentioned that their parents were teachers and are now retired and doing well. Often I like to use the example of teachers since most assume that they don't do very well. The poster gave evidence that thanks to a well funded state sponsored retirement plan they are doing well. Teachers earn a lower middle class income from almost day one and have every holiday and the entire summer off. Compare that to a 23 year old brand new CFI and their odds of earning as much over an entire career is far less.

Aviation careers have been going through a permanent change since deregulation. FedEx is one of the last bastions of the old school. Throughout all my postings on this web site I have never hear such a rosy assessment from anyone at UAL, DAL, AA or NWA. People need to know that for most a career in aviation will not be able to match the earnings potential of an urban police officer or grocery store manager. I understand why you want to feel good about it, but what about the guy who is contemplating 150K in school loan debt to start out as a CFI? I am not here to be a dream buster just interested in nightmare prevention. Not everyone is interested in martyrdom.

SkyHigh

preludespeeder

Sky high I just ask one question of you, I agree with you that no one on here is painting a rosy picture of the legacy airlines but they are also not posting a domm and gloom lower class picture either. Find me some proof that they are living in proverty on that low six figure income after paying taxes and into their retirment just like the rest of the American population is doing on their salary. I also would like to see some official pay scales for the standerd police officer making six figures. Please show some real evidence to your argument. One other question, where would I have to go to spend 150k to become a CFI, I have looked but seem unable to find that school anywhere. Is it in Illinois.

On a side note, how is the little one doing, walking yet.

SkyHigh

Search this forum yourself and you will find several here who have mentioned that they are 150k in debt, or add up the total cost of flight training to the full expenses of four years at a state university and you will reach than number very fast. Then add to it the lost years as a CFI and regional FO. Those years are losses.

Don't forget the opportunity cost. In your case if I recall you were making in the mid 40's at your last job. Whoever has your job now most likely has a pay raise. After you add up the losses for your training to lost wages and then to what you gave up by selling your house and it will be over a decade before you reach a break even point, if ever.

Search the Internet for current urban police officer job listings. I can easily find ones that are starting at over 50K on the west coast. It would take a pilot perhaps 5 to 10 years to reach that amount plus they have to fully fund their own retirement at 15-18% per year. And, lets not forget the wild-card called furlough. By the time a pilot has reached income parity the police officer will be retired.

Pilots are focused on the possible end results. Their minds are wrapped around that fat captains paycheck and overlook the years leading up to that day and odds of actually reaching it. Management designs it that way. The carrot and the stick. They know that you guys will be blinded by a thin future hope and overlook the losses of today.

SKyHigh

B Swinney

Please watch the show before blasting SkyHigh on how he is trying to kill peoples' dreams. I saw the program when it aired on television yesterday and when I saw what SkyHigh posted it made sense. No one is trying to be a "dream killer". I'm sure we all know and can dream about a lot of good aspects of becoming a professional pilot, but as for the bad aspects, perhaps it takes someone who has gone through a few experiences to let us in on a few things that we either didn't know or ignored.

Please just watch the program, it is free, and then come back to the forum and read the forum from the beginning.

As for my thoughts of the program.... I still want to fly as a professional pilot, but over the last two years I have come to the conclusion that if I want to become financially free/independent I'll need to rely on myself/something else besides working for someone to achieve my goal. I may not have a college education - as of now - but I am ecstatic that success does not require one. Well that's all I have to say for now.

SkyHigh

People and pilots especially all like to lie to ourselves. Rather than dig deep and face the facts we grab onto some twisted fact and never stop and take an honest look at our situation. The episode of Frontline was a wake up call to the nation as far as retirement was concerned. I think that pilots are especially at risk due to the length of time it takes to reach an equitable salary and high costs of training.

To me a quick acid test is to see how a person is living when compared to their stated income. I flew with a Horizon Airlines captain once who told a jumpseater that he was earning 72K. I knew full well that he was lying through his teeth. Upon questioning him later it became obvious to me that even he believed his lie. I am sure that he believes that lie today as he makes his way through traffic in a Geo Metro and lives in a two bedroom apartment. I then began to take a survey of everyone I flew with and found that pilots at Horizon Air mostly populated trailer parks, apartment buildings and distant cheaper communities that required seniority and a long drive or commute to get to work.

In order to make a fair estimate one needs to do an honest cost benefit analysis. A pilots estimated or real income should be stripped free of per diem, overtime, dry cleaning compensation, and any other payments or incomes. Then subtract for the accrued costs of initial training and education. Don't forget to then subtract the actual costs of crash pads, airport cars and other commuter costs like hotel rooms and restruant food. Once you reach than number take out the cost for a self funded retierment at 18% per year to be followed by the opportunity cost of what you could be doing instead and you will find the truth.

I might be able to work double shifts at Walmart and sell off my vacation but it doesnt mean I earn a great living. It just means that I would be working my a$$ off.

SkyHigh

ClutchCargo

You obviously have not read his other 1700-odd posts.

duvie

I don't know the age at FedeX or UPS (I chose them because I believe they are the most competitive jobs out there) but at CAL the average age of hire has been calculated to be 31.2. I looked at the seniority list and computed the date of hire with date of birth for all the classes that started this year.

252 people were hired before the start of summer and I would wager an additional 200 have been hired this fall. SkyHigh I don't really know how you can refute hard facts. over 500 people will have been hired at Continental by the end of the year, averaging just over 30 years old. This info is factual evidence against the "Very few people make it to the majors and if they do they're too old to enjoy it" idea that you preach.

favila008

I do believe SkyHigh comunicates the risks of aviation, but he exagerates them way too much. On a positive note for SkyHigh, I have a current adverticement for LAPD, starting salary $52,638 to 70,679 (based on education and experience), benefits: Full Pay from first day of academy, 15 days paid vacation plus sick leave and 13 paid holidays, over 200 different types of assignments, flexible schedules, bilingual bonus. Sounds nice, but I don't want to be a police officer.