That's the problem, Carl, you don't prove me wrong, you obfuscate, change the subject and launch into personal attacks. These are the facts; ALPA merger policy changes very infrequently and when it does change it is through a time tested process that is incredibly inclusive. In the end it is affirmed through multiple democratic votes. The idea that one small group can hijack the process is just false. That is what you are pushing and that is what you have to try to run away from.

For the younger guys on here, I hope you notice the pattern. Carl is someone who never has to take responsibility for his diatribes. When his type of tactics are found to be failures, he simply packs up, insults anyone who disagrees with him, and then moves on to his next attacks.

If anyone reading this has not read the UAL/CAL arbitration award you should read it today, twice. What you see is a definitive rejection of the type of extreme positions that the Carls in this world push for. Taking extreme positions is not a sign of strength, it is a sign of weakness. If you are in a leadership position, it is very seductive to adopt this type of extreme position. You can thump your chest and make yourself look tough for a few minutes, but in the end you will fail. In general, those weak leaders then try to find scapegoats; "the game was rigged" "the refs screwed us" "it's not fair". The excuses are endless but they always end up having to make up excuses. Go back and let me know how many $$$ that Lloyd "meet you at the gates of hell" Hill returned to American pilots. How has USAPA done with their lofty promises and tough talk?

Does anyone doubt that the "Carls" at Airtran read the first TA from their merger committee and were shouting to the heavens that this was a travesty and that if we voted it down the next offer would be much, much better. Now those same "Carls" are probably suing ALPA claiming it's all ALPA's fault.

Carl pushed for an extreme solution in the DAL/NWA case. Using DOH produced a list grossly distorted in favor of him and his fellow pilots. For a while, Carl is applauded. Then when this position has left his fellow pilots without a say in the final list, he starts in with the accusations and attacks. The game was rigged, it's all Lee Moak's fault, etc. etc. etc. Now Carl spends his time trying to tear everything down because he is mad that the world didn't treat him fairly.

Read the arbitration award and see how impressed the arbitrators were with extreme positions. Tell me how much those positions played out in the final award. Now we have the Carls trying to tell us that the game was rigged because United fixed the rules before kickoff. Nice excuses, but that doesn't help anyone does it, it just spreads blame.

These DPA guys are just the same way, what a luring message. Hey, ALPA is the reason why this last decade has sucked for the piloting profession. Vote for me and I will make it all better. The fact that these guys have never done anything, never taken responsibility for anything makes it so easy for them to claim victory.

I know there are a few young guys on this board who are now on the MEC. My guess is that they are quickly finding out that there are no easy answers. Pithy attacks and personal insults get you nowhere, but they sound cool. Contract negotiations are about 95% dictated by statistics and analysis. Steely nerve has very little to do with it.

So if you don't care when your next contract is signed, if you don't care what the next seniority integration at Delta looks like then please by all means adopt these extreme positions. They will work just as well tomorrow as they have for the last 10 years. When the CAL committee presented a seniority list with 2,800+ United pilots stapled to the bottom, I am sure the Carls in the world applauded and hoisted them onto their shoulders. Tough talk, hard bargaining, big balls. In the end they might as well have given the Board a slip of paper saying "I don't have any meaningful input, so you go figure out what the list should look like."

Maybe you young guys want to have that experience. Maybe we should all start pre-writing our excuses about why we got skunked in the next SLI arbitration. Carl doesn't care because he will be golden. Hell, I don't have anything to worry about either. If it does matter to you, go read that arbitration award right now, and then figure out what types of tactics you want to follow in the future. Would you rather succeed or spend your time writing creative excuses about why you failed? Your choice.

 

I was talking about the Skywest Codeshare. But this is one example. Thank you. Funny thing is, RJs have never fit into SWAs network anyway. Both Independence Air and ExpressJet have proved that flying RJs point to point is a failure.

Regardless, I was wrong. You were right. Thanks for providing the post. No more for me today. Played 18 holes in 90 degree heat. I'm out until tomorrow at the earliest. Have a good night everybody. Even you Carl and Purple.

 

Having fun can be hard work.

Flew over to a friend's grand opening event at PDK. Had no idea a new Cirrus could be a $850,000 airplane. Yeegads. But wow, they are comfortable. Air conditioning that works .... amazing.

Meanwhile we taxied back to the runway in our airplane with every door and window open, kids trying to scoop air with their little hands cupped in the vents ... it's hot .... .

 

Impossible! That would mean that the DPA had ignored their survey results for the constitution wouldn't it?


I believe that the percentage is too high. I believe that a 25% for President and Vice President is sufficient and a 15% for all other positions would be acceptable or keep percentages but only for the 1/2 of the month that they are not on the line. (12.5% for reps). Thanks.


I oppose the compensation only because 30% and 25% premiums are a little excessive. 15% and 10% should be adequate.



Concerning pay for representatives. I do not believe pay should be so great as to have pilots want to serve for the money. Pay to cover expenses and loss of flying should suffice. Positions should be non-compensated, except for pay for loss of flying and expenses. We should have the desire to serve for the goodness of the organization. At the most, 5 to 10%. Any more will lead to what we have with ALPA.


I believe flying 0-25% of the ALV per month, with 100-75% "free" from flight obligations, without a salary override is fair enough compensation for DPA officers.

The 25% override is wrong. No additional pay for reps. I thought this one an area DPA would address, but I guess as things get closer you are becoming more like ALPA? Is the potential money starting to tease your greed?



I don't believe that DPA officers should get paid more than they would on the line. Volunteers don’t, why should the officers?


Item 17: 50% flying may be too much for a DPA officer. I would prefer the officer to focus more time to union duties. Recommend reduce to 20-25% for the month. Item 18: A 30% premium sounds a bit high to me. How about 20% for the President and 15% for all other DAL Pilot reps. Keep up the good work.


I support paying a premium to elected officers and representatives, but I feel 30% and 25% is a bit high. I believe 25% and 15% would be more appropriate.


I opposed the pay proposal statement in favor of something similar, just not as high.



Question 17-I am assuming a pilot on reserve would be exempt from 50% ALV requirement?

Make sure I understand that pay for reps is based on position actively held and NOT with a bypass. 3. Limit green slips on reps



I do NOT support the increase in pay to Officers of 30%/25%, especially not to their entire schedule. If DPA wants to run another Association of pilots soaking the line pilots, I'll have none of it & will work against DPA. If pilots don't want to work for DPA with only getting paid for a dropped trip or 2 a month, then they don't have to volunteer - other guys will volunteer for the positions. That should help lower the required dues. If DPA wants to take dues from us to spread out to the officers, why would we change from ALPA????


Regarding question 17. I would like to see our elected reps work one required trip a month. The hours or days do not need to add up to 40 hours. If they are working hard for the union they may be too busy to work a 40 hour month, especially if they have families.



Ref 18: The question appears ambiguous to me. If not from dues, from where would the 50% make-up come? In addition, I don't like the tone that DPA Officer override percentages are set in stone at this early date. I'm not a fan of officer overrides. I think the highest DPA Officers (Pres and VP, maybe Sec/Treas) should enjoy a system such as we now have with ALPA, where their full-time attention could be devoted to DPA duties if necessary. No lower-level officers (below Pres, VP, S/T) should have this option, nor should any DPA Officer have the ability to drop a month's flying only to Green Slip one or two sweet trips.


I oppose question #18 at the rates of 30 & 25% over-ride in pay. I think 15 & 10% is more appropriate, if any at all. Those who volunteer are exceptional people in their willingness to serve, however 30 & 25 is a bit much.




I don't support MEC members working a half schedule each month as I know the time constraints of representing.


Also, there might be support for language that would cut the override for reps in half before dues could ever be raised. Or perhaps a change to the dues structure would have to be put to a membership vote.


#18- An additional premium to compensate these two officers is understandable, but 30% and 25% is arbitrary and seems like too much. Maybe 10% would be enough, and would discourage anyone from getting into this for the $.

 

Allow me to shift gears for a moment.

I'm curious as to whether this discussion, in various forms and on various threads, is making a dent. There are half a dozen guys on each side gunning hard for their causes. As for me, there is nothing anyone can say to make me think ALPA belongs on the property. And others feel the same way about the DPA.

I'd like to ask any lurkers to please weigh in. Has this back-and-forth actually resulted in any converts one way or the other? Does this discussion matter for anyone on the fence? Is anyone here actually on the fence?

 

FWIW, my statement was that WN management had not shown "MUCH" interest in outsourcing, not no interest. You and Sink drastically changed what I said with that single word change.

There was a bit of a battle back in the 05 timeframe in regard to volaris codesharing, and it was quite intense negotiations. Some of the codeshare was allowed, but it was fairly minimal.

My point was similar to yours johnso in that SWAPA have had it easier without the constant threat and constant desire to increase outsourcing that our management teams have shown. That being said, they showed excellent foresight and stood strong when it was brought up. So, by virtue of both SWAPA showing good foresight in fighting outsourcing and with not much push by management, you have a formula for a strong section 1.

 

As stated previously, you add bullet points in your laundry list claiming to prove what's wrong with the DPA constitution. Yet fully half of the items in your laundry list are NOT in the DPA constitution. You've just made it up

But I urge you to continue posting newer and newer laundry lists of items that are provably wrong. It's good for people to see ALPA debating skills at their best.

Carl

 

Here's a great illustration of ALPA tactics folks. Equating DPA with USAPA...literally right out of the ALPA/DALPA talking points. Pure mud slinging politics.

Padre2992 is a former rep here at Delta. While he was a current rep, he sent me a private message. The message had the name of a Delta 747 captain in the subject line, and the message simply said: "We know who you really are Carl."

This is ALPA folks and there's sadly many more examples of ALPA union officers thinking they can shut people up with whom they disagree or can't debate.

Carl

 

People are too smart for this angry former MEC bureaucrat stuff Alfa. You don't win a prize for the most wrong points in a single far too wordy post. They remember how many times I (and others) proved you wrong or caught you flat out lying while you were still an active member of the MEC bureaucracy. You always went radio silent for a month until memories faded. You're still exactly the same.

But like hitimefurl, I encourage you to keep it up so people can see ALPA debating skills up close and personal.

Carl

 

I hit balls at the range for 3 hours in that same heat. I realized I'm just getting too old to handle that anymore.

Carl