Delta Representation Discussion
09-10-2013 | 02:40 PM
#361
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From: 747-400 Captain
Carl
09-10-2013 | 02:54 PM
#362
Gets Weekends Off
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From: 777 Sim Instructor
But that's not what happens at SWA. Hourly pay rates are not an apples to apples comparison because life as an airline pilot is about pay based on the number of working days required to achieve that pay. It's also important to understand pay hours versus working hours, AKA work rules.
SWAPA has much better work rules than us allowing for much greater pay hours in a day than Delta. If its easy to make 7 or 8 hours of pay per day for only flying 4 or 5 hours per day at SWA, while there's almost no way to do that at Delta, you begin to see that pay rates are only part of the equation.
A far more important fact however is one you've continually ignored despite my discussing it in a number posts. Specifically, even though pay rates do not tell the whole story, even looking at rates alone shows us that the SWAPA pay rate applies to every aircraft in their fleet. That SWAPA pay rate alone is higher than every aircraft in the Delta fleet except for 87 aircraft. The other 635 aircraft at Delta have lower pay rates than SWAPA. That's not counting SWAPA's much greater pay per day capability than Delta pilots, it's just comparing the pay rates only. This makes the lower pay rates on the 635 aircraft at Delta feel even worse to those Delta pilots who fly those lower paying 635 aircraft.
SWAPA leads our industry in pay, work rules and scope. SWAPA is an independent union. That's a fact. The only way you can possibly twist it any other way is to crow about the higher pay rate on 87 out of 722 Delta aircraft.
Carl
SWAPA has much better work rules than us allowing for much greater pay hours in a day than Delta. If its easy to make 7 or 8 hours of pay per day for only flying 4 or 5 hours per day at SWA, while there's almost no way to do that at Delta, you begin to see that pay rates are only part of the equation.
A far more important fact however is one you've continually ignored despite my discussing it in a number posts. Specifically, even though pay rates do not tell the whole story, even looking at rates alone shows us that the SWAPA pay rate applies to every aircraft in their fleet. That SWAPA pay rate alone is higher than every aircraft in the Delta fleet except for 87 aircraft. The other 635 aircraft at Delta have lower pay rates than SWAPA. That's not counting SWAPA's much greater pay per day capability than Delta pilots, it's just comparing the pay rates only. This makes the lower pay rates on the 635 aircraft at Delta feel even worse to those Delta pilots who fly those lower paying 635 aircraft.
SWAPA leads our industry in pay, work rules and scope. SWAPA is an independent union. That's a fact. The only way you can possibly twist it any other way is to crow about the higher pay rate on 87 out of 722 Delta aircraft.
Carl
I guess what I'm saying is SWAPA has some good things and some not so good things. Remember what they do have they got through constructive engagement. When Herb retired SWAPA bought him a Harley, can you see DL pilots doing that for Richard ? Hell, he makes so much money he should buy us Harleys when he retires.
09-10-2013 | 02:56 PM
#363
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From: 747-400 Captain
If you are correct and Delta's labor negotiations are none of our business (even when ALPA Brothers are involved) then you advocate the DPA's representational model of exclusion, not the inclusive unifying model ALPA was founded on. What is your choice? How we administer our union is our political choice. What say you?
On the question of who flies the corporate brand, DPA is definitely exclusionary to its core. On the question of wanting pilots to become Delta pilots (and representing them as Delta pilots), we are inclusive to our core.
Carl
09-10-2013 | 03:09 PM
#364
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Pay rates are no indication of the strength of a union, but rather the economics at point in time. The Delta pilot contract of the 1940's paid about $2.30 per seat per hour, and the pilots were getting 5%ish raises. If you transposed that contract over the 747 today, that would be over $16,500 hr pay rate. Pay cuts and freezes are an inevitable part of the law of exponential functions. Scope contracts however, are the standard by which all others are compared.
09-10-2013 | 03:32 PM
#365
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From: 747-400 Captain
His signature wasn't required if the Delta MEC had signed it instead. But since the ALPA president chose to sign it, then there would also have been no need for the signature of the Pinnacle MEC. Yet the Pinnacle MEC's signature is there.
Carl
09-10-2013 | 03:55 PM
#366
Can't abide NAI
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From: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
All ALPA contracts require the President's signature per ALPA C&BL.
All ALPA negotiations are authorized by the President, or they are invalid.
President Woerth refused to sign the CC Air contract. Without his signature, the contract was not valid.
All ALPA negotiations are authorized by the President, or they are invalid.
President Woerth refused to sign the CC Air contract. Without his signature, the contract was not valid.
09-10-2013 | 04:46 PM
#367
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From: 747-400 Captain
Lee Moak did it numerous times when he stated that RJ's flying Delta passengers is good for Delta, and ultimately good for Delta pilots.
The previous MEC vigorously defended joint ventures as a win for Delta pilots...despite them being badly out of balance.
Just sayin.
Carl
The previous MEC vigorously defended joint ventures as a win for Delta pilots...despite them being badly out of balance.
Just sayin.
Carl
09-10-2013 | 04:58 PM
#368
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From: 747-400 Captain
Officially, we should seek the changes in recognition (that I think I properly give you credit for thinking of). Unofficially we can all hold our own personal opinions as to whether Pinnacle's Bridge Agreement was a class A **** up. At least it will be removed as an existential threat to ALPA on the Delta property, when we ensure the proper recognition of the Representatives of Delta pilots.
Carl
09-10-2013 | 05:02 PM
#369
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From: 747-400 Captain
IMO, your hearts in the right place, but your aim is off. We don't have outsourcing because of anything the Pinnacle pilots did with regards to the Bridge Agreement. We don't have outsourcing because of our Admin Manual or C&BLs. We don't have outsourcing because of our ALPA President. We have outsourcing because it's allowed in our contract, which was negotiated and ratified by Delta pilots, after a done deal was brought to them by their union and told to vote YES or understand there's no Plan B if you force us back to the bargaining table with a NO vote. It's just easier to cast the responsibility elsewhere.
Carl
09-10-2013 | 05:05 PM
#370
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From: 747-400 Captain
Carl
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