Not at all. But you're seriously overestimating the number of those 600+ that will quit because the name on their lanyard changes. Most will want to at least have the opportunity to continue in those roles, because most of them feel they work for Delta pilots...not ALPA.

Key to the ALPA continuing fear campaign is to characterize this as reinventing the wheel. How did APA, IPA, SWAPA etc do it without ALPA? How did they survive?

I am actively participating in every way I can. Learning, advocating and voting.

Indeed they are. And many feel they work for Delta pilots...not ALPA

I do everything I possibly can. But how much more could we accomplish if DALPA didn't ignore survey results, then hide those results from us? What about if DALPA actually grieved something as opposed to running from them claiming the language (that they wrote) is too weak to defend? How much could we accomplish if the MEC administrators came to our elected reps and asked for guidance from those reps instead of bringing them a TA that was already signed by the negotiators?

Carl

 

That just further highlights the problems of ALPA and whether there are any core convictions there anymore. If you really feel strongly, you NEVER stop objecting. You never go along. And you way overplay ALPA's role in keeping the already retired pilots from coming back. The main objection to that were airline managements who didn't want to spend the money on retraining old pilots who'd been out of the cockpit too long.

There's a soul problem at ALPA Bar. Whether it's the selling of one man's job to another for money, or what ALPA did to the TWA pilots, there is a huge core conviction problem at ALPA. Maybe it's inevitable when an organization gets that huge and bureaucracy driven...but that's where we are with today's ALPA.

Carl

 

You call this a sincere compliment to ALPA???

Carl

 

Carl,

OK, you know I was on the side of the APA and their hard line stance. Man I cheered for them. But, where did that hard line get them? Parked for years to ultimately have their PWA mostly tossed by Judge Lane. Damn I wished we were right and ALPA's attorneys were wrong ... but that is not how it turned out.

So looking back at the TWA case with 20/20 hindsight we can see that ALPA's advice to the TWA pilots was correct. That being said I do not know whether there might be a way to set aside the Jury's decision in light of the fact that the advice ALPA gave was straight up correct.

ALPA, especially these days, it pragmatic. That pragmatism takes advantage of opportunities and avoids difficulty. Whether you like C2012, or not, having three shots at improvement in an improving business environment would not have happened were it not for getting our two deals as a merged airline done quickly and efficiently. That incremental improvement puts into a very good position for Contract 2015.

Sure, it is a different way of going. But, if we followed APA or USAPA's path we would not even have our JPWA finished. Instead we've already had that, plus another improvement, with another that we will be preparing for about 8 months from now.

 

Whoops.

The individual contracts prevented post retired pilots from returning. There were cases of pilots who had retired and returned (I'm thinking of specific instances). That was at an ALPA carrier.

 

By a raving age 65 supporter? Yeah. His enemy is mi amigo.

 

FedEx's Captain / Second Officers never retired.

 

I'm thinking of Pinnacle.

 

APA did mismanage their Section 6 by not realizing that NMB had decided to play the role of management stonewalling. But APA definitely did the right thing in bankruptcy by ignoring the ALPA advice to take whatever is offered and live to fight another day. APA ignored that and refused the judge's first offer. The judge's second offer was considerably better, although still not great given the bankruptcy.

None of what you've written here was part of the lawsuit. The lawsuit wasn't about the advice ALPA gave to their TWA pilots being correct or not, it was about that advice serving pilots that they didn't represent...namely the APA pilots. The jury agreed with the TWA pilots and against ALPA.

My opinion is that today's ALPA does this at their own peril. Because their definition of pragmatism includes the selling of one man's job to another. As such, they've completely lost their way of what it means to be a union. Say what you want about everything else Bar, an organization can't survive when it has lost the very soul of who they are...a union.

Everything you stated is the exact argument as to why we were in such a great position for Contract 2012. You saw what happened.

Carl

 

I understand that, but are you sure you read it correctly??

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Contrast to ALPA: A single poll was taken No input was allowed by parties outside the union offices. The poll results were 'balanced' after the fact. Individual airline pilot groups (even if they voted in favor of changing the rule) are held hostage by ALPA National and are not allowed to do what their membership feels is best for their unique circumstances.

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Carl