Delta Representation Discussion
09-12-2013 | 07:08 PM
#491
Back on TDY
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 12,487
Likes: 0
From: 747-400 Captain
The DPA Security Chairman writes weekly on the DALPA forum that the only way forward is to clean house. He's been advocating replacing DALPA volunteers since day one. It's even in some of the DPA testimonials
1. At what point is it time to do some house cleaning?
DPA also mentions starting from a clean slate quite a bit.
DPA FAQ
Please remember that this is a collaborative process being created on a clean slate.
DPA Press Release
The Delta Pilots Association will start from a clean slate and build its constitution and by-laws from the ground up using the best practices from all airline pilot labor organizations and innovation from within the ranks of Delta Pilots.
Not sure which union practices they got raising dues without a vote from
1. At what point is it time to do some house cleaning?
DPA also mentions starting from a clean slate quite a bit.
DPA FAQ
Please remember that this is a collaborative process being created on a clean slate.
DPA Press Release
The Delta Pilots Association will start from a clean slate and build its constitution and by-laws from the ground up using the best practices from all airline pilot labor organizations and innovation from within the ranks of Delta Pilots.
Not sure which union practices they got raising dues without a vote from
The clean slate refers to the building of a constitution, not ridding the union of all its current officials and volunteers.
That's amazingly weak of you to not even read your own quotes.
Carl
09-12-2013 | 07:09 PM
#492
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 165
Likes: 0
Carl;
The survey and direction from the pilots was not disregarded like you state. Was all of it attained? Nope and that is why its still valid and why releasing it is a bad idea. To say it was totally disregarded is wrong. Much of it was attained, and to my surprise. Honest answer.
The survey and direction from the pilots was not disregarded like you state. Was all of it attained? Nope and that is why its still valid and why releasing it is a bad idea. To say it was totally disregarded is wrong. Much of it was attained, and to my surprise. Honest answer.
I believe that the percentage is too high. I believe that a 25% for President and Vice President is sufficient and a 15% for all other positions would be acceptable or keep percentages but only for the 1/2 of the month that they are not on the line. (12.5% for reps). Thanks.
I oppose the compensation only because 30% and 25% premiums are a little excessive. 15% and 10% should be adequate.
Concerning pay for representatives. I do not believe pay should be so great as to have pilots want to serve for the money. Pay to cover expenses and loss of flying should suffice. Positions should be non-compensated, except for pay for loss of flying and expenses. We should have the desire to serve for the goodness of the organization. At the most, 5 to 10%. Any more will lead to what we have with ALPA.
I believe flying 0-25% of the ALV per month, with 100-75% "free" from flight obligations, without a salary override is fair enough compensation for DPA officers.
The 25% override is wrong. No additional pay for reps. I thought this one an area DPA would address, but I guess as things get closer you are becoming more like ALPA? Is the potential money starting to tease your greed?
I don't believe that DPA officers should get paid more than they would on the line. Volunteers don’t, why should the officers?
Item 17: 50% flying may be too much for a DPA officer. I would prefer the officer to focus more time to union duties. Recommend reduce to 20-25% for the month. Item 18: A 30% premium sounds a bit high to me. How about 20% for the President and 15% for all other DAL Pilot reps. Keep up the good work.
I support paying a premium to elected officers and representatives, but I feel 30% and 25% is a bit high. I believe 25% and 15% would be more appropriate.
I opposed the pay proposal statement in favor of something similar, just not as high.
Question 17-I am assuming a pilot on reserve would be exempt from 50% ALV requirement?
Make sure I understand that pay for reps is based on position actively held and NOT with a bypass. 3. Limit green slips on reps
I do NOT support the increase in pay to Officers of 30%/25%, especially not to their entire schedule. If DPA wants to run another Association of pilots soaking the line pilots, I'll have none of it & will work against DPA. If pilots don't want to work for DPA with only getting paid for a dropped trip or 2 a month, then they don't have to volunteer - other guys will volunteer for the positions. That should help lower the required dues. If DPA wants to take dues from us to spread out to the officers, why would we change from ALPA????
Regarding question 17. I would like to see our elected reps work one required trip a month. The hours or days do not need to add up to 40 hours. If they are working hard for the union they may be too busy to work a 40 hour month, especially if they have families.
Ref 18: The question appears ambiguous to me. If not from dues, from where would the 50% make-up come? In addition, I don't like the tone that DPA Officer override percentages are set in stone at this early date. I'm not a fan of officer overrides. I think the highest DPA Officers (Pres and VP, maybe Sec/Treas) should enjoy a system such as we now have with ALPA, where their full-time attention could be devoted to DPA duties if necessary. No lower-level officers (below Pres, VP, S/T) should have this option, nor should any DPA Officer have the ability to drop a month's flying only to Green Slip one or two sweet trips.
I oppose question #18 at the rates of 30 & 25% over-ride in pay. I think 15 & 10% is more appropriate, if any at all. Those who volunteer are exceptional people in their willingness to serve, however 30 & 25 is a bit much.
I don't support MEC members working a half schedule each month as I know the time constraints of representing.
Also, there might be support for language that would cut the override for reps in half before dues could ever be raised. Or perhaps a change to the dues structure would have to be put to a membership vote.
#18- An additional premium to compensate these two officers is understandable, but 30% and 25% is arbitrary and seems like too much. Maybe 10% would be enough, and would discourage anyone from getting into this for the $.
09-12-2013 | 07:11 PM
#493
Happy to be here
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 18,563
Likes: 0
From: A-320A
Carl;
If we get absolutely everything we want it a "Do you want Sugar or Sugar" type survey and there is no need to ever use it again or that its release poses no concerns of negatively effecting the pilots, then there is no reason to withhold it. That said, when there is still valid info on them and that the company is data driven and having one of these surveys with a vote count the matrix they could create could hurt the pilot group going forward, it is very shortsighted and foolhardy to release it. I support the unanimous position of not releasing the last survey.
I understand the desire to release but when you started seeing the issues with release, I prefer not to know and risk hurting our future efforts.
If we get absolutely everything we want it a "Do you want Sugar or Sugar" type survey and there is no need to ever use it again or that its release poses no concerns of negatively effecting the pilots, then there is no reason to withhold it. That said, when there is still valid info on them and that the company is data driven and having one of these surveys with a vote count the matrix they could create could hurt the pilot group going forward, it is very shortsighted and foolhardy to release it. I support the unanimous position of not releasing the last survey.
I understand the desire to release but when you started seeing the issues with release, I prefer not to know and risk hurting our future efforts.
09-12-2013 | 07:11 PM
#494
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 165
Likes: 0
Nobody's advocated any such thing and your own quotes prove it. I bolded them so you wouldn't miss it.
The clean slate refers to the building of a constitution, not ridding the union of all its current officials and volunteers.
That's amazingly weak of you to not even read your own quotes.
Carl
The clean slate refers to the building of a constitution, not ridding the union of all its current officials and volunteers.
That's amazingly weak of you to not even read your own quotes.
Carl
Last edited by hitimefurl; 09-12-2013 at 07:23 PM. Reason: sorry he's a vice chair
09-12-2013 | 07:12 PM
#495
Back on TDY
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 12,487
Likes: 0
From: 747-400 Captain
Carl;
What posts? I have not gone back and read it all. I think there are plenty of others that have responded and refuted them so I did not read em.
You are wrong on TWA
You are wrong on much of what you perceive is going on at DALPA and at national.
You are wrong on what a large thud our pilots will feel if DPA wins.
You are being naive when you say that the changeover will be seamless.
Its a lot of pie in the sky on what will go on. Look no farther than UAPA to see how long it takes to get in to position. Ask the FDX pilots and they were lucky that they had an ALPA to return to.
What posts? I have not gone back and read it all. I think there are plenty of others that have responded and refuted them so I did not read em.
You are wrong on TWA
You are wrong on much of what you perceive is going on at DALPA and at national.
You are wrong on what a large thud our pilots will feel if DPA wins.
You are being naive when you say that the changeover will be seamless.
Its a lot of pie in the sky on what will go on. Look no farther than UAPA to see how long it takes to get in to position. Ask the FDX pilots and they were lucky that they had an ALPA to return to.
Carl
09-12-2013 | 07:16 PM
#496
Back on TDY
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 12,487
Likes: 0
From: 747-400 Captain
You gonna show up to a Council 20 LEC meeting and present a resolution for the MEC to consider? Ya know be part of the process?
What you state in step two is my vision for what we need to do, and in a good environment where the legislative laws remain unchanged, where LCC merges with AMR and the industry is set up perfectly to not be forced in to concessionary bargaining again. Ya know what ALPA National and the Delta MEC have been working to set up since CH11.? Yeah that is easy to state. You get foreign ownership laws removed, and see the industry fall apart, you are back where we were a decade ago and back to a concessionary spiral. A void in DC would set this up perfectly and that is why DPA is very nearsighted. You can want something but you have to make sure you can set the environment up to attain it. Its what has been happening and is a day to day fight. Analogies that akin ALPA imploding like removing your foot out of the water could not be more succinct. The only people who would notice ALPA gone are the pilots that no longer have a voice to offer reason to stop these changes in DC.
What you state in step two is my vision for what we need to do, and in a good environment where the legislative laws remain unchanged, where LCC merges with AMR and the industry is set up perfectly to not be forced in to concessionary bargaining again. Ya know what ALPA National and the Delta MEC have been working to set up since CH11.? Yeah that is easy to state. You get foreign ownership laws removed, and see the industry fall apart, you are back where we were a decade ago and back to a concessionary spiral. A void in DC would set this up perfectly and that is why DPA is very nearsighted. You can want something but you have to make sure you can set the environment up to attain it. Its what has been happening and is a day to day fight. Analogies that akin ALPA imploding like removing your foot out of the water could not be more succinct. The only people who would notice ALPA gone are the pilots that no longer have a voice to offer reason to stop these changes in DC.
Carl
09-12-2013 | 07:18 PM
#497
Back on TDY
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 12,487
Likes: 0
From: 747-400 Captain
09-12-2013 | 07:18 PM
#498
Happy to be here
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 18,563
Likes: 0
From: A-320A
I've asked him twice why the DPA ignored all these responses in the DPA constitution survey when construction their constitution and he's ignored me each time I've asked it.
I believe that the percentage is too high. I believe that a 25% for President and Vice President is sufficient and a 15% for all other positions would be acceptable or keep percentages but only for the 1/2 of the month that they are not on the line. (12.5% for reps). Thanks.
I oppose the compensation only because 30% and 25% premiums are a little excessive. 15% and 10% should be adequate.
Concerning pay for representatives. I do not believe pay should be so great as to have pilots want to serve for the money. Pay to cover expenses and loss of flying should suffice. Positions should be non-compensated, except for pay for loss of flying and expenses. We should have the desire to serve for the goodness of the organization. At the most, 5 to 10%. Any more will lead to what we have with ALPA.
I believe flying 0-25% of the ALV per month, with 100-75% "free" from flight obligations, without a salary override is fair enough compensation for DPA officers.
The 25% override is wrong. No additional pay for reps. I thought this one an area DPA would address, but I guess as things get closer you are becoming more like ALPA? Is the potential money starting to tease your greed?
I don't believe that DPA officers should get paid more than they would on the line. Volunteers don’t, why should the officers?
Item 17: 50% flying may be too much for a DPA officer. I would prefer the officer to focus more time to union duties. Recommend reduce to 20-25% for the month. Item 18: A 30% premium sounds a bit high to me. How about 20% for the President and 15% for all other DAL Pilot reps. Keep up the good work.
I support paying a premium to elected officers and representatives, but I feel 30% and 25% is a bit high. I believe 25% and 15% would be more appropriate.
I opposed the pay proposal statement in favor of something similar, just not as high.
Question 17-I am assuming a pilot on reserve would be exempt from 50% ALV requirement?
Make sure I understand that pay for reps is based on position actively held and NOT with a bypass. 3. Limit green slips on reps
I do NOT support the increase in pay to Officers of 30%/25%, especially not to their entire schedule. If DPA wants to run another Association of pilots soaking the line pilots, I'll have none of it & will work against DPA. If pilots don't want to work for DPA with only getting paid for a dropped trip or 2 a month, then they don't have to volunteer - other guys will volunteer for the positions. That should help lower the required dues. If DPA wants to take dues from us to spread out to the officers, why would we change from ALPA????
Regarding question 17. I would like to see our elected reps work one required trip a month. The hours or days do not need to add up to 40 hours. If they are working hard for the union they may be too busy to work a 40 hour month, especially if they have families.
Ref 18: The question appears ambiguous to me. If not from dues, from where would the 50% make-up come? In addition, I don't like the tone that DPA Officer override percentages are set in stone at this early date. I'm not a fan of officer overrides. I think the highest DPA Officers (Pres and VP, maybe Sec/Treas) should enjoy a system such as we now have with ALPA, where their full-time attention could be devoted to DPA duties if necessary. No lower-level officers (below Pres, VP, S/T) should have this option, nor should any DPA Officer have the ability to drop a month's flying only to Green Slip one or two sweet trips.
I oppose question #18 at the rates of 30 & 25% over-ride in pay. I think 15 & 10% is more appropriate, if any at all. Those who volunteer are exceptional people in their willingness to serve, however 30 & 25 is a bit much.
I don't support MEC members working a half schedule each month as I know the time constraints of representing.
Also, there might be support for language that would cut the override for reps in half before dues could ever be raised. Or perhaps a change to the dues structure would have to be put to a membership vote.
#18- An additional premium to compensate these two officers is understandable, but 30% and 25% is arbitrary and seems like too much. Maybe 10% would be enough, and would discourage anyone from getting into this for the $.
I believe that the percentage is too high. I believe that a 25% for President and Vice President is sufficient and a 15% for all other positions would be acceptable or keep percentages but only for the 1/2 of the month that they are not on the line. (12.5% for reps). Thanks.
I oppose the compensation only because 30% and 25% premiums are a little excessive. 15% and 10% should be adequate.
Concerning pay for representatives. I do not believe pay should be so great as to have pilots want to serve for the money. Pay to cover expenses and loss of flying should suffice. Positions should be non-compensated, except for pay for loss of flying and expenses. We should have the desire to serve for the goodness of the organization. At the most, 5 to 10%. Any more will lead to what we have with ALPA.
I believe flying 0-25% of the ALV per month, with 100-75% "free" from flight obligations, without a salary override is fair enough compensation for DPA officers.
The 25% override is wrong. No additional pay for reps. I thought this one an area DPA would address, but I guess as things get closer you are becoming more like ALPA? Is the potential money starting to tease your greed?
I don't believe that DPA officers should get paid more than they would on the line. Volunteers don’t, why should the officers?
Item 17: 50% flying may be too much for a DPA officer. I would prefer the officer to focus more time to union duties. Recommend reduce to 20-25% for the month. Item 18: A 30% premium sounds a bit high to me. How about 20% for the President and 15% for all other DAL Pilot reps. Keep up the good work.
I support paying a premium to elected officers and representatives, but I feel 30% and 25% is a bit high. I believe 25% and 15% would be more appropriate.
I opposed the pay proposal statement in favor of something similar, just not as high.
Question 17-I am assuming a pilot on reserve would be exempt from 50% ALV requirement?
Make sure I understand that pay for reps is based on position actively held and NOT with a bypass. 3. Limit green slips on reps
I do NOT support the increase in pay to Officers of 30%/25%, especially not to their entire schedule. If DPA wants to run another Association of pilots soaking the line pilots, I'll have none of it & will work against DPA. If pilots don't want to work for DPA with only getting paid for a dropped trip or 2 a month, then they don't have to volunteer - other guys will volunteer for the positions. That should help lower the required dues. If DPA wants to take dues from us to spread out to the officers, why would we change from ALPA????
Regarding question 17. I would like to see our elected reps work one required trip a month. The hours or days do not need to add up to 40 hours. If they are working hard for the union they may be too busy to work a 40 hour month, especially if they have families.
Ref 18: The question appears ambiguous to me. If not from dues, from where would the 50% make-up come? In addition, I don't like the tone that DPA Officer override percentages are set in stone at this early date. I'm not a fan of officer overrides. I think the highest DPA Officers (Pres and VP, maybe Sec/Treas) should enjoy a system such as we now have with ALPA, where their full-time attention could be devoted to DPA duties if necessary. No lower-level officers (below Pres, VP, S/T) should have this option, nor should any DPA Officer have the ability to drop a month's flying only to Green Slip one or two sweet trips.
I oppose question #18 at the rates of 30 & 25% over-ride in pay. I think 15 & 10% is more appropriate, if any at all. Those who volunteer are exceptional people in their willingness to serve, however 30 & 25 is a bit much.
I don't support MEC members working a half schedule each month as I know the time constraints of representing.
Also, there might be support for language that would cut the override for reps in half before dues could ever be raised. Or perhaps a change to the dues structure would have to be put to a membership vote.
#18- An additional premium to compensate these two officers is understandable, but 30% and 25% is arbitrary and seems like too much. Maybe 10% would be enough, and would discourage anyone from getting into this for the $.
They liked the one sided debate. DALPA has finally grown tired of not refuting lies, or identifying shortfalls in the organization they are selling. Its time to clear the deck for 2015.
Apparently the DPA constitution is being edited because of the glaring flaws that are being pointed out. It proves that its seat of the pants and they are in damage control mode. Cant even stand by their constitution and it took a few communiques from DALPA for them to start editing.
09-12-2013 | 07:24 PM
#500
Happy to be here
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 18,563
Likes: 0
From: A-320A
You are a data collector. Do some research, I'm sure you can find some document from the last five years with that on there. Heck read what I wrote during the TA on here. You do love Narco posting.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
