Delta Representation Discussion
09-12-2013 | 06:03 AM
#421
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 383
Likes: 0
From: Delta M88 A ATL
The following is an interesting letter quoted from the DPA website, brings a lot of salient points forward.
The Switch
"My switching to DPA is not about the people-it's about the process. DPA offers important structural changes that serve the Delta pilot exclusively. This is an all inclusive process where we take the best our pilot group has to offer. Former South, former North, former Western, former Republic, all the way back to North Central and more. Including all of our talent in an unmitigated format. That's the point- an unmitigated transparent structure. I am sure current officers would use their talents, their integrity and their dedication to cause, much more effectively without 'regional' constraints and loyalties, bureaucratic encumbrances and needs.
Industry Paradigm Shift
Whether one disagrees with this premise or not, the national system we and DALPA operate under also represents the whip-sawing contract carriers (regionals). It is impossible for me to accept that ALPA National would happily consider the demise of the contract carrier ('regional' carrier'), who are the very nemesis of our contracts and profession. These carriers are considered feathers in ALPA's cap, not competitors for our mainline flying. To add insult to injury, the contract carrier pilots are more adverse to expanding their flying than we are! I've made it a point to talk to every contract pilot I see, and they are more angry about the continuation of contract flying simply because they see the evaporation of the careers they seek. Even more insulting, these pilots, and us, have been indoctrinated into the belief that "we'll never be paid what we used to be paid". How laughable! I foresee a better industry than ever before. Just like the 85 or so car manufacturers of the 1900's, consolidated into the big 3, our industry has done the same. Before Japanese imports, the automakers were ensured of decades of profits from industry consolidation and new pricing power. In the same way we as an industry have consolidated and the recent pricing increases (in the nation's deepest recession) have stuck, proof positive of consolidation. In addition, new revenue streams such as add-on charges for bags, fuel and upgrade charges, and other administrative charges have changed the industry as Richard Anderson correctly communicates to Wall Street . This combination portends an era in the airline industry that has never been seen before. Gone are the CAB (Civil Aeronautics Board) days, when to get the JFK-LAX route, you had to offset it with JFK-Schenectady, JFK Montpelier, and JFK-Binghamton!! Now we can fly only profitable routes with no oversight or financially draining offsets. Recognition of these paradigm shifts are not possible when you are too, too involved in the company's business plan. We must be engaged, don't get me wrong, but remember ourselves and our professional allegiances.
Not Knowing the Trees, while in the Woods
I won't mention a certain DALPA rep by name, who I respect, who cornered me after the DTW roadshow and said, "Gregg, don't you see? We can't get the restoration you seek because the company is not making the margins it did prior to C2K. Gregg, check the data, we were 10% margins in the late 90's and we are in the 3% margins now!"--- Think about this statement folks. Do you think our financial expert sat down by his lonesome, looked at the numbers, and proposed to the MEC- "Our margins are not high enough to seek restoration"? Do you honestly think he did this? NO WAY! This is management speaking! This information is an argument from management he is using to convince me of his accepted managerial beliefs. He heard it- he accepted it-he mouth speaks it. Right from management. Again, to add insult to injury, he did not even consider that in the late 90's the economy was in it's biggest expansion in our nation's history, and now we are in the nation's deepest recession! The "Delta" of 1998 would be crushed today. Pricing wouldn't hold. No brand recognition overseas, reduced economies of scale, no added revenue streams. Our company is much healthier and stronger than it's ever been. Management knows this. The recent TA reflects this immersion of DALPA and ALPA national into the company’s business plan. Why didn't DALPA see our strength? Why did DALPA settle? We have been hoodwinked. Fooled. Played. With an independent union and no strings to contract carriers and less bureaucracy and more transparency, we can collectivize the combined ideas and desires of the pilots and see their representative's adherence to survey direction. It will not be perfect. But our imperfections will "fault" to the pilot's side and not "fault" to the management side.
The NMB FEAR
After being briefed by Linda Puchala of the NMB, our union was incarcerated. It is good for a man to recognize his limitations, but it is injurious to accept constraints from those who profit at your expense. We all understand commerce has to continue. But we also understand that one time events (BANKRUPTCY) don't fit into the neatly calibrated world of the NMB- and when the government or management are clearly and deliberately intransigent to the needs of the profession, other alternatives need to be addressed. Imagining a professional pilot with 30 or more years of safe flying-the skills and responsibility, the education and operating environments--and the accountability-not having a sustentative pension, or a professional pilot working at wages comparable to a recently graduated white collar worker? A Mesa 9 year ALPA first officer earns $34,000 annually, this is just unbelievable! Yet managements have called our plight "the new norm". Congressmen and managerial officers have prospered wildly while at times driving companies and the nation into ruin, while we have sacrificed steep contractual losses while enhancing the well being and safety of the American public. This requires change, one way or another. We have the power, we have the knowledge, all we need is the proper leadership and fortitude. Separating ourselves from the sedentary mass of ALPA is a first step in the direction of new avenues of action in enhancing our careers.
Debilitating Psychology
There are 'some' in ALPA who possess psychology’s that prevent demonstrative actions for restitution. Our pay and benefit destruction was real and mathematical, this is not an emotional plea-this is a contract fleecing that needs to be rectified. This avoidance of warranted, and historical, levels of remuneration and benefits, may be due to aligning one's self to closely to management's plan and fearing every possible negative consequence in any action, and this limits ALPA's ability to materialize any convincing argument for restoration of our profession. Even mentioning restoration in any DALPA publication was avoided. The word "restoration" seemed verboten. Conversely though, there are relationship issues that are conducive to a well run company--- and mutually beneficial economic processes that we think are necessary to retain and enhance. Our Delta corporate culture is worth preserving. We just hope that management also feels this way. This recent TA illustrates that they surely do not 'get' employee value, expertise and financial sacrifice. An independent union would be able to stand strong-while continuing our positive traditions by pointing out how reasonable exchanges can occur. There is a rational splitting of the corporate pie. Of course we do care how much management gets paid, this is a business. But we also understand there are applicable salaries for different occupations, management, pilots, flight attendants and so forth. But when Richard Anderson needs to take a 63% pay cut-to achieve his own "industry standard" matrix, even before his recent 10% pay raise, we have to squawk! What's good for the goose is good for the gander. This type of discrepancy is disingenuous and an example of feeble leadership. It breeds contempt. This is NOT the Delta culture we were attracted to and love.
The Structural Story
There are, even more importantly, structural institutional characteristics that preclude aggressive dismantling of the contract carriers---the environment is tough enough being that management will fight us on every level-as contract flying is a kingpin in the dismantling of our benefits --even tougher with a hand tied behind our back in representation. An independent union would have been free to recognize and explore issues to solve the 'regional') carriers incursions into our careers. We would have recognized that when Republic is offering $5000 signing bonuses and with the 1500 rule approaching, that we could have sat the 50 seat aircraft down without the play-acting of an exchange for 717's. Mesa’s contract was killed by Delta abrogating their contract on a scheduling performance compliance problem. Hiring pilots out of the contract carriers would have lead to similar results--- without the window dressing of pilots "buying aircraft" by complying with management's narrow body (but meaning CRJ-900'S) desires.
There's also an issue about huge bureaucratic monstrosities that fail to engage and focus with a laser and who cannot move with "out of the box" individuality as APA has been able to do. The very nature of huge bureaucracies is that they must maintain their funding or go broke. This limits "responsible" measured risk taking actions, because any loss of revenue could severely affect the operational nature of this huge beast.
Detractors will point to the success at DALPA and protracted malaise at APA; yet ALPA represented USAir, TWA, Pinnacle, Mesa. These carriers (and more) might be able to proffer different views of ALPA'S successes. Let's take a June 11th, 2012 statement right off of the Mesa website:
“Compensation
Pilots are paid per flight hour as negotiated between the Air Line Pilots Association and the Company in accordance with the provisions of the Railway Labor Act. The Contract stipulates minimum pay of 75.83 flight hours per month. Current first year First Officer pay is $19.26 per flight hour for turboprops and $21.72 per flight hour for Regional Jets."
If this isn't pathetic, I'm not sure what is. By the ninth year at Mesa you could be earning-flying airline routes, complex turbojets, in all operating environments, with huge litigatory responsibility…. 37.96 as an FO, Heck, after 9 years they ought to be happy with 2847 dollars a month! That's a whole $34,000 a year after nine years of commercial flying!
You can see how lopsided this paradigm is. Create contract carriers, whip-saw them against each other. Get the lowest price possible. Now expand the flying, then the gauge---- inside the major contracts. Where is the outrage?!? How stupid have we been as a profession to let this go on? The Delta TA is an example of a couple of accomplishments covering the central failure of larger- (and requested by management)-- upgauging of contract flying. Very coincidental that the 50 seat aircraft could not go away unless we bought bigger aircraft? Who’s the fool here? It's not management! They GOT what they wanted! Only independence can help these poor guys and gals flying for nothing, which helps us who are directly affected by their plight.
Another factor to consider is this; Has the Delta air line pilots ever taken two consecutive years of 3% raises after the company has made money for several years and on tract for more? In our history? I think not! But we did it in TA 2012.
An indication of poor representation.
The "New" Union
The pilots of our airline are still the same. The talent pool even more encompassing, couple this with more freedom, less financial strain and more transparency and we have a more powerful and evolving entity.
Imagine a union where you, as a dues paying member, are not allowed to see the union's nor the company's open positions for work and wages? Imagine a union where you cannot see what your brothers and sisters surveyed positions are? Imagine a union where the impartiality of the pilot's choice is marred by pushing and shoving at a professional meeting? Well this is what we have now.
Now imagine a union free from contract carriers (regionals)? Where the union pushes to capture all the flying of our esteemed passengers? Where contract survey results are instantaneous? Where opening positions are dictated by union sentiment and the union reps are not afraid to demand restitution of wages and benefits, if the company can afford it? Where finances are at the tip of your finger? This is where we need to re-start. This is what DPA is about and why we need to move our talent from DALPA to DPA.
I've experienced 3 decades of reversals. No, C2K wasn't the greatest contract known to Delta. That was a restoration contract after a decade of concessions, while the company made record profits. That was a leveling, and moderate one at that. We gave away 3B6, and the Time Value Of money since 1996.
Richard’s Next Moves?
Unless there are government (election?), rate or other structural issues, that "BIG PURCHASE" we've been told about by several members of the ruling party will probably wait until 4th quarter 2014-or 2015, and then there will be an consolidation announcement, an opening of our contract, and a rush to complete a transaction and a below inflation contract that will be shoved on us--again averting a responsible and full restitution of our mathematical sacrifices in bankruptcy. Boy are we dumb.
But you have the power to change this course. Start being smart today. Talk with your wife and families. Think about how unified support could have helped American and UAL reach higher, Give USAir some reason to let bygones be bygones, and given us restoration. When one worker is willing to work for less-especially the strongest one, it drives all the workers down and deprives them of their lifetime investment in an aviation career. Fill out a DPA card. Talk to a DPA member and think independently. I'd rather get out of the burning house before UAL does. It's bad enough shouldering the "regionals" as it is, it would be worse alone. Now is the time to get a bolder representation, independent, and with transparency."
The Switch
"My switching to DPA is not about the people-it's about the process. DPA offers important structural changes that serve the Delta pilot exclusively. This is an all inclusive process where we take the best our pilot group has to offer. Former South, former North, former Western, former Republic, all the way back to North Central and more. Including all of our talent in an unmitigated format. That's the point- an unmitigated transparent structure. I am sure current officers would use their talents, their integrity and their dedication to cause, much more effectively without 'regional' constraints and loyalties, bureaucratic encumbrances and needs.
Industry Paradigm Shift
Whether one disagrees with this premise or not, the national system we and DALPA operate under also represents the whip-sawing contract carriers (regionals). It is impossible for me to accept that ALPA National would happily consider the demise of the contract carrier ('regional' carrier'), who are the very nemesis of our contracts and profession. These carriers are considered feathers in ALPA's cap, not competitors for our mainline flying. To add insult to injury, the contract carrier pilots are more adverse to expanding their flying than we are! I've made it a point to talk to every contract pilot I see, and they are more angry about the continuation of contract flying simply because they see the evaporation of the careers they seek. Even more insulting, these pilots, and us, have been indoctrinated into the belief that "we'll never be paid what we used to be paid". How laughable! I foresee a better industry than ever before. Just like the 85 or so car manufacturers of the 1900's, consolidated into the big 3, our industry has done the same. Before Japanese imports, the automakers were ensured of decades of profits from industry consolidation and new pricing power. In the same way we as an industry have consolidated and the recent pricing increases (in the nation's deepest recession) have stuck, proof positive of consolidation. In addition, new revenue streams such as add-on charges for bags, fuel and upgrade charges, and other administrative charges have changed the industry as Richard Anderson correctly communicates to Wall Street . This combination portends an era in the airline industry that has never been seen before. Gone are the CAB (Civil Aeronautics Board) days, when to get the JFK-LAX route, you had to offset it with JFK-Schenectady, JFK Montpelier, and JFK-Binghamton!! Now we can fly only profitable routes with no oversight or financially draining offsets. Recognition of these paradigm shifts are not possible when you are too, too involved in the company's business plan. We must be engaged, don't get me wrong, but remember ourselves and our professional allegiances.
Not Knowing the Trees, while in the Woods
I won't mention a certain DALPA rep by name, who I respect, who cornered me after the DTW roadshow and said, "Gregg, don't you see? We can't get the restoration you seek because the company is not making the margins it did prior to C2K. Gregg, check the data, we were 10% margins in the late 90's and we are in the 3% margins now!"--- Think about this statement folks. Do you think our financial expert sat down by his lonesome, looked at the numbers, and proposed to the MEC- "Our margins are not high enough to seek restoration"? Do you honestly think he did this? NO WAY! This is management speaking! This information is an argument from management he is using to convince me of his accepted managerial beliefs. He heard it- he accepted it-he mouth speaks it. Right from management. Again, to add insult to injury, he did not even consider that in the late 90's the economy was in it's biggest expansion in our nation's history, and now we are in the nation's deepest recession! The "Delta" of 1998 would be crushed today. Pricing wouldn't hold. No brand recognition overseas, reduced economies of scale, no added revenue streams. Our company is much healthier and stronger than it's ever been. Management knows this. The recent TA reflects this immersion of DALPA and ALPA national into the company’s business plan. Why didn't DALPA see our strength? Why did DALPA settle? We have been hoodwinked. Fooled. Played. With an independent union and no strings to contract carriers and less bureaucracy and more transparency, we can collectivize the combined ideas and desires of the pilots and see their representative's adherence to survey direction. It will not be perfect. But our imperfections will "fault" to the pilot's side and not "fault" to the management side.
The NMB FEAR
After being briefed by Linda Puchala of the NMB, our union was incarcerated. It is good for a man to recognize his limitations, but it is injurious to accept constraints from those who profit at your expense. We all understand commerce has to continue. But we also understand that one time events (BANKRUPTCY) don't fit into the neatly calibrated world of the NMB- and when the government or management are clearly and deliberately intransigent to the needs of the profession, other alternatives need to be addressed. Imagining a professional pilot with 30 or more years of safe flying-the skills and responsibility, the education and operating environments--and the accountability-not having a sustentative pension, or a professional pilot working at wages comparable to a recently graduated white collar worker? A Mesa 9 year ALPA first officer earns $34,000 annually, this is just unbelievable! Yet managements have called our plight "the new norm". Congressmen and managerial officers have prospered wildly while at times driving companies and the nation into ruin, while we have sacrificed steep contractual losses while enhancing the well being and safety of the American public. This requires change, one way or another. We have the power, we have the knowledge, all we need is the proper leadership and fortitude. Separating ourselves from the sedentary mass of ALPA is a first step in the direction of new avenues of action in enhancing our careers.
Debilitating Psychology
There are 'some' in ALPA who possess psychology’s that prevent demonstrative actions for restitution. Our pay and benefit destruction was real and mathematical, this is not an emotional plea-this is a contract fleecing that needs to be rectified. This avoidance of warranted, and historical, levels of remuneration and benefits, may be due to aligning one's self to closely to management's plan and fearing every possible negative consequence in any action, and this limits ALPA's ability to materialize any convincing argument for restoration of our profession. Even mentioning restoration in any DALPA publication was avoided. The word "restoration" seemed verboten. Conversely though, there are relationship issues that are conducive to a well run company--- and mutually beneficial economic processes that we think are necessary to retain and enhance. Our Delta corporate culture is worth preserving. We just hope that management also feels this way. This recent TA illustrates that they surely do not 'get' employee value, expertise and financial sacrifice. An independent union would be able to stand strong-while continuing our positive traditions by pointing out how reasonable exchanges can occur. There is a rational splitting of the corporate pie. Of course we do care how much management gets paid, this is a business. But we also understand there are applicable salaries for different occupations, management, pilots, flight attendants and so forth. But when Richard Anderson needs to take a 63% pay cut-to achieve his own "industry standard" matrix, even before his recent 10% pay raise, we have to squawk! What's good for the goose is good for the gander. This type of discrepancy is disingenuous and an example of feeble leadership. It breeds contempt. This is NOT the Delta culture we were attracted to and love.
The Structural Story
There are, even more importantly, structural institutional characteristics that preclude aggressive dismantling of the contract carriers---the environment is tough enough being that management will fight us on every level-as contract flying is a kingpin in the dismantling of our benefits --even tougher with a hand tied behind our back in representation. An independent union would have been free to recognize and explore issues to solve the 'regional') carriers incursions into our careers. We would have recognized that when Republic is offering $5000 signing bonuses and with the 1500 rule approaching, that we could have sat the 50 seat aircraft down without the play-acting of an exchange for 717's. Mesa’s contract was killed by Delta abrogating their contract on a scheduling performance compliance problem. Hiring pilots out of the contract carriers would have lead to similar results--- without the window dressing of pilots "buying aircraft" by complying with management's narrow body (but meaning CRJ-900'S) desires.
There's also an issue about huge bureaucratic monstrosities that fail to engage and focus with a laser and who cannot move with "out of the box" individuality as APA has been able to do. The very nature of huge bureaucracies is that they must maintain their funding or go broke. This limits "responsible" measured risk taking actions, because any loss of revenue could severely affect the operational nature of this huge beast.
Detractors will point to the success at DALPA and protracted malaise at APA; yet ALPA represented USAir, TWA, Pinnacle, Mesa. These carriers (and more) might be able to proffer different views of ALPA'S successes. Let's take a June 11th, 2012 statement right off of the Mesa website:
“Compensation
Pilots are paid per flight hour as negotiated between the Air Line Pilots Association and the Company in accordance with the provisions of the Railway Labor Act. The Contract stipulates minimum pay of 75.83 flight hours per month. Current first year First Officer pay is $19.26 per flight hour for turboprops and $21.72 per flight hour for Regional Jets."
If this isn't pathetic, I'm not sure what is. By the ninth year at Mesa you could be earning-flying airline routes, complex turbojets, in all operating environments, with huge litigatory responsibility…. 37.96 as an FO, Heck, after 9 years they ought to be happy with 2847 dollars a month! That's a whole $34,000 a year after nine years of commercial flying!
You can see how lopsided this paradigm is. Create contract carriers, whip-saw them against each other. Get the lowest price possible. Now expand the flying, then the gauge---- inside the major contracts. Where is the outrage?!? How stupid have we been as a profession to let this go on? The Delta TA is an example of a couple of accomplishments covering the central failure of larger- (and requested by management)-- upgauging of contract flying. Very coincidental that the 50 seat aircraft could not go away unless we bought bigger aircraft? Who’s the fool here? It's not management! They GOT what they wanted! Only independence can help these poor guys and gals flying for nothing, which helps us who are directly affected by their plight.
Another factor to consider is this; Has the Delta air line pilots ever taken two consecutive years of 3% raises after the company has made money for several years and on tract for more? In our history? I think not! But we did it in TA 2012.
An indication of poor representation.
The "New" Union
The pilots of our airline are still the same. The talent pool even more encompassing, couple this with more freedom, less financial strain and more transparency and we have a more powerful and evolving entity.
Imagine a union where you, as a dues paying member, are not allowed to see the union's nor the company's open positions for work and wages? Imagine a union where you cannot see what your brothers and sisters surveyed positions are? Imagine a union where the impartiality of the pilot's choice is marred by pushing and shoving at a professional meeting? Well this is what we have now.
Now imagine a union free from contract carriers (regionals)? Where the union pushes to capture all the flying of our esteemed passengers? Where contract survey results are instantaneous? Where opening positions are dictated by union sentiment and the union reps are not afraid to demand restitution of wages and benefits, if the company can afford it? Where finances are at the tip of your finger? This is where we need to re-start. This is what DPA is about and why we need to move our talent from DALPA to DPA.
I've experienced 3 decades of reversals. No, C2K wasn't the greatest contract known to Delta. That was a restoration contract after a decade of concessions, while the company made record profits. That was a leveling, and moderate one at that. We gave away 3B6, and the Time Value Of money since 1996.
Richard’s Next Moves?
Unless there are government (election?), rate or other structural issues, that "BIG PURCHASE" we've been told about by several members of the ruling party will probably wait until 4th quarter 2014-or 2015, and then there will be an consolidation announcement, an opening of our contract, and a rush to complete a transaction and a below inflation contract that will be shoved on us--again averting a responsible and full restitution of our mathematical sacrifices in bankruptcy. Boy are we dumb.
But you have the power to change this course. Start being smart today. Talk with your wife and families. Think about how unified support could have helped American and UAL reach higher, Give USAir some reason to let bygones be bygones, and given us restoration. When one worker is willing to work for less-especially the strongest one, it drives all the workers down and deprives them of their lifetime investment in an aviation career. Fill out a DPA card. Talk to a DPA member and think independently. I'd rather get out of the burning house before UAL does. It's bad enough shouldering the "regionals" as it is, it would be worse alone. Now is the time to get a bolder representation, independent, and with transparency."
09-12-2013 | 07:32 AM
#423
Back on TDY
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 12,487
Likes: 0
From: 747-400 Captain
Carl,
As a point of historical fact, this happened during Captain O'Malley's tenure. Captain O'Malley defended it in a way that preempted the incoming MEC. I think it can be said that the incoming administration maintained that status quo, which is presumed to have been authored by ALPA's Representation Department.
As a point of historical fact, this happened during Captain O'Malley's tenure. Captain O'Malley defended it in a way that preempted the incoming MEC. I think it can be said that the incoming administration maintained that status quo, which is presumed to have been authored by ALPA's Representation Department.
Carl
09-12-2013 | 07:45 AM
#424
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 165
Likes: 0
Mettler is another guy who's gone too far on the DALPA forum with his rantings. I'd add him to the list with Sol, Jerry, Weatherman and few others that do "forum work" for the DPA. There's all types of weird stuff on the DPA forums.
No constitution discussion since September 2012. A missive about Romans that fails to acknowledge that the Romans were proud of their democratic process. Let's not even talk about the fact that they sent a login account to Richard Anderson which they eventually deleted but really who sends the CEO a login?
Theres a guy who seems upset he can't use Deltas printers to print DPA material
Hello All,
On Saturday I signed in for my flight and then checked the DPA web site on 4 differant Delta computers. No desk top Delta computer will allow access to the DPA web site in L.A. There could be a problem with our new video, flash file, or other technical issues.
I normally download and print our brochure for distribution on my trip. This was not done today and I am now considering alternative methods to print our brochure for distribution while here in Narita.
The issue with Delta computer access to the DPA web site seems a bit sinister.
On Saturday I signed in for my flight and then checked the DPA web site on 4 differant Delta computers. No desk top Delta computer will allow access to the DPA web site in L.A. There could be a problem with our new video, flash file, or other technical issues.
I normally download and print our brochure for distribution on my trip. This was not done today and I am now considering alternative methods to print our brochure for distribution while here in Narita.
The issue with Delta computer access to the DPA web site seems a bit sinister.
Other Web Board Communication Guidance
Fellow DPA Members,
Our goal is to replace ALPA with DPA. To do that, we need to focus on all Delta pilots receiving our message. When you post ANYTHING on the ALPA web board, you are providing CONTENT to their website. Content generates readership which, in turn, provides ALPA supporters with a platform to speak and be heard. All DPA members should consider going RADIO SILENT on the ALPA forum. When ALPA sees their reader counts dropping, it will really hamper their ability to convey their mesage. You must begin to generate interest by other means. Take the time you would spend on the ALPA board and invest it elsewhere. Don’t drive readers to the ALPA web board by participating in a food fight. Drop out of sight and let them fret over why there is no COMM. We have already reached every reader of the boards. You have nothing else to gain by continuing to post there. Think about it.
Fellow DPA Members,
Our goal is to replace ALPA with DPA. To do that, we need to focus on all Delta pilots receiving our message. When you post ANYTHING on the ALPA web board, you are providing CONTENT to their website. Content generates readership which, in turn, provides ALPA supporters with a platform to speak and be heard. All DPA members should consider going RADIO SILENT on the ALPA forum. When ALPA sees their reader counts dropping, it will really hamper their ability to convey their mesage. You must begin to generate interest by other means. Take the time you would spend on the ALPA board and invest it elsewhere. Don’t drive readers to the ALPA web board by participating in a food fight. Drop out of sight and let them fret over why there is no COMM. We have already reached every reader of the boards. You have nothing else to gain by continuing to post there. Think about it.
Subject: Congratulations
Message: I was the first Charlotte Chairman (Capt. Rep) for USAPA at USAirways. It's a wonderful feeling to see the new enthusiasm for your own Union, knowing your efforts will be rewarded by actual results on YOUR line, and your future is in YOUR hands with your pilots actually voting on critical issues. ALPA is and for the last thirty years has been a micro-example of the Federal Government...top-heavy, inefficient and self-serving. Congratulations on turing off the auto-pilot of complacency, and getting back in control of your destiny.
Most Sincerely,
Capt. 76 Intl. CLT
Message: I was the first Charlotte Chairman (Capt. Rep) for USAPA at USAirways. It's a wonderful feeling to see the new enthusiasm for your own Union, knowing your efforts will be rewarded by actual results on YOUR line, and your future is in YOUR hands with your pilots actually voting on critical issues. ALPA is and for the last thirty years has been a micro-example of the Federal Government...top-heavy, inefficient and self-serving. Congratulations on turing off the auto-pilot of complacency, and getting back in control of your destiny.
Most Sincerely,
Capt. 76 Intl. CLT
Gentlemen:
I am a retired pilot and last president of the Professional Pilots Association (PPA) which did a similar attempt in the 90's. We peaked at 42% authorization cards. You seem pretty well organized already, but just in case - we used the same law firm (Seham & Seham) as the current US Airways pilots are using. Their constitution and bylaws template came from us. We had a monthly publication called "The Yaw Damper" which we hired base secretaries to put into pilot "V" files when Delta management allowed (on and off depending on their relations with DALPA). We also had authorized bulletin boards at various bases - but had to take down the one in ATL after the system chief pilot threw a fit. We had a 4th floor "mole" pilot who got us a mailing list of pilots, and had some secret sympathizers on the MEC.
You probably already have had a taste of ALPA's reaction in order to keep the dues and perks. Their budget, multiple publications, and leverage with management were impossible to overcome. We had death threats, personal attacks in publications, our children scared by phone threats, cars vandalized, and flight kits/lockers attacked. A few pilot lounge confrontations had to be broken up by chief pilots.
I admire your true volunteerism and backbone. Best of luck in a very uphill battle.
XXX, retired in Waleska, GA
I am a retired pilot and last president of the Professional Pilots Association (PPA) which did a similar attempt in the 90's. We peaked at 42% authorization cards. You seem pretty well organized already, but just in case - we used the same law firm (Seham & Seham) as the current US Airways pilots are using. Their constitution and bylaws template came from us. We had a monthly publication called "The Yaw Damper" which we hired base secretaries to put into pilot "V" files when Delta management allowed (on and off depending on their relations with DALPA). We also had authorized bulletin boards at various bases - but had to take down the one in ATL after the system chief pilot threw a fit. We had a 4th floor "mole" pilot who got us a mailing list of pilots, and had some secret sympathizers on the MEC.
You probably already have had a taste of ALPA's reaction in order to keep the dues and perks. Their budget, multiple publications, and leverage with management were impossible to overcome. We had death threats, personal attacks in publications, our children scared by phone threats, cars vandalized, and flight kits/lockers attacked. A few pilot lounge confrontations had to be broken up by chief pilots.
I admire your true volunteerism and backbone. Best of luck in a very uphill battle.
XXX, retired in Waleska, GA
We at US Airways had the additional problem of a seniority integration that many pilots of the former East of US Airways side found to be unfair. At the most extreme example we had a new hire pilot with less than 60 days longevity placed one number junior to our lowest seniority pilot who at that time was approaching 60 years old and who had 17.5 years of service and had never been furloughed. Despite what many Web-Board internet experts say, seniority wasn’t the only issue that caused US Airways pilots to leave ALPA. Very senior pilots at US Airways would not have supported this drive for independence if seniority was the only issue at hand. The US Airways seniority issue is in the courts and it will be resolved there.
09-12-2013 | 07:58 AM
#425
Back on TDY
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 12,487
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From: 747-400 Captain
I flew with a captain who advised me "Never vote for anyone senior to you, they'll screw anyone underneath them."
I don't agree with that philosophy either, btw...
Changing the bargaining agent won't fix the problem. getting to know who is working for you and making sure you get quality people doing the job is the only way to improve things...
I don't agree with that philosophy either, btw...
Changing the bargaining agent won't fix the problem. getting to know who is working for you and making sure you get quality people doing the job is the only way to improve things...
Carl
09-12-2013 | 08:18 AM
#426
Back on TDY
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 12,487
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From: 747-400 Captain
Do a quick scan of the Hangar Talk section on the ALPA forum for some perspective on Captain Fielding's writing (ranting.)
He is the best example of DPA's belief that if we demand it loud enough, it will be true. Nearly every post of his is filled with ANGRY CAPS and lots of exclamation points!!!!!!!
The very fact that his name is attached to the DPA, publicly now, should give everyone pause. His deliberate mis-representation of our Duty Period Average (a different kind of DPA) was not a mistake. Jerry knows very well that our DPA is 5:15 for lineholders (not 5.) At that rate, it takes 15.24 days (not 20) to reach 80 hours, assuming you can't hold avg credit higher than that. He is spinning, promising, and saying anything he can think of to get guys to fill that card out.
He is the best example of DPA's belief that if we demand it loud enough, it will be true. Nearly every post of his is filled with ANGRY CAPS and lots of exclamation points!!!!!!!
The very fact that his name is attached to the DPA, publicly now, should give everyone pause. His deliberate mis-representation of our Duty Period Average (a different kind of DPA) was not a mistake. Jerry knows very well that our DPA is 5:15 for lineholders (not 5.) At that rate, it takes 15.24 days (not 20) to reach 80 hours, assuming you can't hold avg credit higher than that. He is spinning, promising, and saying anything he can think of to get guys to fill that card out.
Carl
09-12-2013 | 08:21 AM
#427
Back on TDY
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 12,487
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From: 747-400 Captain
09-12-2013 | 08:46 AM
#429
Moderator
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 13,088
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From: B757/767
ALPA is getting things done. DPA is not. Very little money. Little to no experience in DC. Services that will cost more. The need for someone to lobby on their behalf. Lack of adequate volunteers.
All facts.
09-12-2013 | 09:13 AM
#430
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 1,207
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From: CA
Southwest Airlines said Thursday the board of its pilots' union has voted to send a new tentative contract agreement to membership for a ratification vote. The low-cost carrier's pilots in June narrowly rejected a previous deal.
Pilots at Southwest in June voted down a tentative deal reached in January that would have given them pay raises in the midst of a slump in the airline industry.
There had also been grumbling about Southwest's plans to sell travel to Canada and Mexico on partner airlines, which many pilots consider a threat to their jobs.
New Southwest pilots' contract up for vote - USATODAY.com
Pilots at Southwest in June voted down a tentative deal reached in January that would have given them pay raises in the midst of a slump in the airline industry.
There had also been grumbling about Southwest's plans to sell travel to Canada and Mexico on partner airlines, which many pilots consider a threat to their jobs.
New Southwest pilots' contract up for vote - USATODAY.com
Really? Then why, despite working for an extremely profitable company, is their top pay today still about $50/hr LESS than the Delta pilots negotiated 9 years ago? They have YET to get within 20% of where we were almost a decade ago. Yeah, that's really industry leading...
Interesting cut and paste from that article... You left out the 5 year deal, 2% per year for three years part, and the raise "based on profitability" part for the last 2 years.
How did those last two years work out? ...it's an interesting idea.
What is the current progress and length of negotiations? ...expecting DL pilots may have a slower go of it in 2015.
How did those last two years work out? ...it's an interesting idea.
What is the current progress and length of negotiations? ...expecting DL pilots may have a slower go of it in 2015.
SWAPA is derided for not raising the bar, but in fact we are consistently raising the bar for scope and often the price of holding the line or tightening our scope includes accepting lower compensation to do so.
There is a common misunderstanding that SWAPA has never entered into a scope battle but has all of our scope handed to us from a benevolent management group. In reality that couldn't be farther from the truth. Scope is an ongoing battle and we have sacrificed much to hold on to it. As the article points out we turned down the first AIP offered in 2009, in large part due to no gains on the codeshare front. We were being offered small gains in pay during the worst economy since the "Great Depression" but turned down that offer in large part due to company stating that it was seeking expansion through trans border codeshare agreements. The pilot group as a whole stood up and said we won't be a party to growing the airline through codeshare. In the end we accepted a contract that greatly tightened our codeshare scope at the expense of monetary contractual gains.
When the company approached SWAPA in an attempt to codify rates of pay for future international flying we again accepted lower pay in the form of no international override but were able to put the last nail in the coffin regarding international codeshare.
A union must pick its battles and decide what the priorities are. If scope is a major priority then much will be sacrificed in order to hold that line. It is very rare that you get everything you want in a negotiation setting, but when your priorities dictate one goal is of the utmost importance, you may have to spend a lot of negotiating capital to achieve it. The proof is in the pudding.
a. Flying conducted under the terms of a Codeshare Agreement and/or Marketing Agreement by non-Company pilots shall not be performed on aircraft owned, leased, operated, held on order or held on option by the Company or its Affiliates.
2. Domestic Codeshare
Southwest Airlines will not enter into a domestic Codeshare Agreement within the fifty (50) United States without the agreement of the Association.
3. Codeshare for Regional Aircraft Flying
Southwest Airlines will not enter into any domestic or trans-border code share agreement with a regional carrier or involving a regional aircraft
a. Near International/Trans-Border Codeshare will be defined exclusively as Volaris Codeshare flights that include a trans-border segment between Mexico and a SWA city in the continental United States.
b. The Company will not engage in Near International/Trans-Border Codeshare with any carrier other than Volaris.
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