Delta Representation Discussion
09-14-2013 | 10:59 AM
#561
Can't abide NAI
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 12,078
Likes: 15
From: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
09-14-2013 | 01:56 PM
#562
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 165
Likes: 0
Section 7. Salaries and Expenses
1. The compensation/salaries of all Officers, Representatives and Committee Chairpersons of the Association shall be based on bidding for and flying one half (1/2) of the Average Line Value (ALV) of the awarded Category (as defined by the Pilot Working Agreement) or completing an equivalent amount of reserve duty. In addition, the Association will pay a salary of one half (1/2) of the ALV of the Category bid plus a premium of thirty percent (30%) of the ALV for the President and twenty-five percent (25%) of the ALV for all other Officers, Representatives and Committee Chairpersons.
Exception: Should the needs of the Association require that an Officer, Representative or any Committee member be removed from line flying temporarily, the Executive Board may waive up to three consecutive bid periods of line flying. All such waivers will be published on the Association website for review by the membership. Any individual failure to fly one-half (1/2) the ALV or complete an equivalent amount of reserve duty in at least six (6) bid periods in any calendar year will cause an automatic Recall ballot for the individual. Sick leave may be used as necessary and shall not count against the individual requirement to fly one half (1/2) the ALV or complete an equivalent amount of reserve duty. Any flying done over the one-half (1/2) the ALV minimum, including White or Green Slip credit, will decrease the amount paid by the Association. Total pay will never exceed the ALV plus the service override appropriate for the Officer, Representative or Chairperson.
4. Procedures for compensation and other trip loss provisions are contained within the Policy Manual and are subject to review by the Executive Board and the budgetary process.
1. The compensation/salaries of all Officers, Representatives and Committee Chairpersons of the Association shall be based on bidding for and flying one half (1/2) of the Average Line Value (ALV) of the awarded Category (as defined by the Pilot Working Agreement) or completing an equivalent amount of reserve duty. In addition, the Association will pay a salary of one half (1/2) of the ALV of the Category bid plus a premium of thirty percent (30%) of the ALV for the President and twenty-five percent (25%) of the ALV for all other Officers, Representatives and Committee Chairpersons.
Exception: Should the needs of the Association require that an Officer, Representative or any Committee member be removed from line flying temporarily, the Executive Board may waive up to three consecutive bid periods of line flying. All such waivers will be published on the Association website for review by the membership. Any individual failure to fly one-half (1/2) the ALV or complete an equivalent amount of reserve duty in at least six (6) bid periods in any calendar year will cause an automatic Recall ballot for the individual. Sick leave may be used as necessary and shall not count against the individual requirement to fly one half (1/2) the ALV or complete an equivalent amount of reserve duty. Any flying done over the one-half (1/2) the ALV minimum, including White or Green Slip credit, will decrease the amount paid by the Association. Total pay will never exceed the ALV plus the service override appropriate for the Officer, Representative or Chairperson.
4. Procedures for compensation and other trip loss provisions are contained within the Policy Manual and are subject to review by the Executive Board and the budgetary process.
Let's assume the constitution is correct (the DPA has no policy manual yet) and it's ALV. The ALV goes between 72-84 in a high month the DPA President would get 109 and in a low month 93 which is an average of 101. Then there's the officers, reps and committee chairpersons (who will all get more than they do today) at 105 high and 90 low or a 97.5 average.
Full time ALPA drop pilots today are 87, except designated pilots who can plus up (their term) to 92. No ALPA rep can ever exceed 100 hours in a month with FPL and no full time ALPA rep can ever have a GS. The DPA does say they'll deduct pay for GS, but it can't be done today for full time drops.
All of this also fails to account for the fact that ALPA pays Delta and override of around 35% to account for benefits and the such. That's not mentioned anywhere in the DPA constitution or policy manual which would be the starting document.
In a high month at 76ER FO pay Interim President Caplinger would make a base salary of $15873 plus expenses plus the override to Delta plus (unlikely he'd move to ATL) a place to stay, a car, a phone and a computer. Just with the override to Delta his compensation now shows as $21429 for the high month. He isn't getting paid $21K, but it's costing the DPA $21K he's still making a solid $5K more than the DPA comparison pilot at 75 hours. This is like an LM2 at this point as it's what it's costing the DPA to pay for Tim's FPL and that doesn't include the car, phone, computer and apartment that would be added in to his compensation package. He would have the same imputed values added to his LM2 as an ALPA volunteer would today and it could easily be $30K for a high ALV month.
Most ALPA committee chairs aren't on full time drops, nor are the vast majority of the reps. The DPA would increase the pay for all of these positions over today. Not disputable unless it's written wrong.
Oh, and then they ignored all this FPL input:
DPA constitution survey.
I believe that the percentage is too high. I believe that a 25% for President and Vice President is sufficient and a 15% for all other positions would be acceptable or keep percentages but only for the 1/2 of the month that they are not on the line. (12.5% for reps). Thanks.
I oppose the compensation only because 30% and 25% premiums are a little excessive. 15% and 10% should be adequate.
Concerning pay for representatives. I do not believe pay should be so great as to have pilots want to serve for the money. Pay to cover expenses and loss of flying should suffice. Positions should be non-compensated, except for pay for loss of flying and expenses. We should have the desire to serve for the goodness of the organization. At the most, 5 to 10%. Any more will lead to what we have with ALPA.
I believe flying 0-25% of the ALV per month, with 100-75% "free" from flight obligations, without a salary override is fair enough compensation for DPA officers.
The 25% override is wrong. No additional pay for reps. I thought this one an area DPA would address, but I guess as things get closer you are becoming more like ALPA? Is the potential money starting to tease your greed?
I don't believe that DPA officers should get paid more than they would on the line. Volunteers don’t, why should the officers?
Item 17: 50% flying may be too much for a DPA officer. I would prefer the officer to focus more time to union duties. Recommend reduce to 20-25% for the month. Item 18: A 30% premium sounds a bit high to me. How about 20% for the President and 15% for all other DAL Pilot reps. Keep up the good work.
I support paying a premium to elected officers and representatives, but I feel 30% and 25% is a bit high. I believe 25% and 15% would be more appropriate.
I opposed the pay proposal statement in favor of something similar, just not as high.
Question 17-I am assuming a pilot on reserve would be exempt from 50% ALV requirement?
Make sure I understand that pay for reps is based on position actively held and NOT with a bypass. 3. Limit green slips on reps
I do NOT support the increase in pay to Officers of 30%/25%, especially not to their entire schedule. If DPA wants to run another Association of pilots soaking the line pilots, I'll have none of it & will work against DPA. If pilots don't want to work for DPA with only getting paid for a dropped trip or 2 a month, then they don't have to volunteer - other guys will volunteer for the positions. That should help lower the required dues. If DPA wants to take dues from us to spread out to the officers, why would we change from ALPA????
Regarding question 17. I would like to see our elected reps work one required trip a month. The hours or days do not need to add up to 40 hours. If they are working hard for the union they may be too busy to work a 40 hour month, especially if they have families.
Ref 18: The question appears ambiguous to me. If not from dues, from where would the 50% make-up come? In addition, I don't like the tone that DPA Officer override percentages are set in stone at this early date. I'm not a fan of officer overrides. I think the highest DPA Officers (Pres and VP, maybe Sec/Treas) should enjoy a system such as we now have with ALPA, where their full-time attention could be devoted to DPA duties if necessary. No lower-level officers (below Pres, VP, S/T) should have this option, nor should any DPA Officer have the ability to drop a month's flying only to Green Slip one or two sweet trips.
I oppose question #18 at the rates of 30 & 25% over-ride in pay. I think 15 & 10% is more appropriate, if any at all. Those who volunteer are exceptional people in their willingness to serve, however 30 & 25 is a bit much.
I don't support MEC members working a half schedule each month as I know the time constraints of representing.
Also, there might be support for language that would cut the override for reps in half before dues could ever be raised. Or perhaps a change to the dues structure would have to be put to a membership vote.
#18- An additional premium to compensate these two officers is understandable, but 30% and 25% is arbitrary and seems like too much. Maybe 10% would be enough, and would discourage anyone from getting into this for the $.
I believe that the percentage is too high. I believe that a 25% for President and Vice President is sufficient and a 15% for all other positions would be acceptable or keep percentages but only for the 1/2 of the month that they are not on the line. (12.5% for reps). Thanks.
I oppose the compensation only because 30% and 25% premiums are a little excessive. 15% and 10% should be adequate.
Concerning pay for representatives. I do not believe pay should be so great as to have pilots want to serve for the money. Pay to cover expenses and loss of flying should suffice. Positions should be non-compensated, except for pay for loss of flying and expenses. We should have the desire to serve for the goodness of the organization. At the most, 5 to 10%. Any more will lead to what we have with ALPA.
I believe flying 0-25% of the ALV per month, with 100-75% "free" from flight obligations, without a salary override is fair enough compensation for DPA officers.
The 25% override is wrong. No additional pay for reps. I thought this one an area DPA would address, but I guess as things get closer you are becoming more like ALPA? Is the potential money starting to tease your greed?
I don't believe that DPA officers should get paid more than they would on the line. Volunteers don’t, why should the officers?
Item 17: 50% flying may be too much for a DPA officer. I would prefer the officer to focus more time to union duties. Recommend reduce to 20-25% for the month. Item 18: A 30% premium sounds a bit high to me. How about 20% for the President and 15% for all other DAL Pilot reps. Keep up the good work.
I support paying a premium to elected officers and representatives, but I feel 30% and 25% is a bit high. I believe 25% and 15% would be more appropriate.
I opposed the pay proposal statement in favor of something similar, just not as high.
Question 17-I am assuming a pilot on reserve would be exempt from 50% ALV requirement?
Make sure I understand that pay for reps is based on position actively held and NOT with a bypass. 3. Limit green slips on reps
I do NOT support the increase in pay to Officers of 30%/25%, especially not to their entire schedule. If DPA wants to run another Association of pilots soaking the line pilots, I'll have none of it & will work against DPA. If pilots don't want to work for DPA with only getting paid for a dropped trip or 2 a month, then they don't have to volunteer - other guys will volunteer for the positions. That should help lower the required dues. If DPA wants to take dues from us to spread out to the officers, why would we change from ALPA????
Regarding question 17. I would like to see our elected reps work one required trip a month. The hours or days do not need to add up to 40 hours. If they are working hard for the union they may be too busy to work a 40 hour month, especially if they have families.
Ref 18: The question appears ambiguous to me. If not from dues, from where would the 50% make-up come? In addition, I don't like the tone that DPA Officer override percentages are set in stone at this early date. I'm not a fan of officer overrides. I think the highest DPA Officers (Pres and VP, maybe Sec/Treas) should enjoy a system such as we now have with ALPA, where their full-time attention could be devoted to DPA duties if necessary. No lower-level officers (below Pres, VP, S/T) should have this option, nor should any DPA Officer have the ability to drop a month's flying only to Green Slip one or two sweet trips.
I oppose question #18 at the rates of 30 & 25% over-ride in pay. I think 15 & 10% is more appropriate, if any at all. Those who volunteer are exceptional people in their willingness to serve, however 30 & 25 is a bit much.
I don't support MEC members working a half schedule each month as I know the time constraints of representing.
Also, there might be support for language that would cut the override for reps in half before dues could ever be raised. Or perhaps a change to the dues structure would have to be put to a membership vote.
#18- An additional premium to compensate these two officers is understandable, but 30% and 25% is arbitrary and seems like too much. Maybe 10% would be enough, and would discourage anyone from getting into this for the $.
Last edited by hitimefurl; 09-14-2013 at 02:32 PM. Reason: 2
09-15-2013 | 12:34 AM
#563
Back on TDY
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 12,487
Likes: 0
From: 747-400 Captain
Bulk response to the ALPA rent-a-mob:
Work on the DPA constitution started last year...not 4 years ago.
The DPA constitution may well have more edits depending upon member input to the board that is currently managing the constitution. Everyone will know what's in the constitution right up until they vote yes or no. If you like what you see, you can vote yes. If not, vote no.
It is such an exciting time to think there's a chance Delta pilots may be able to build their new union based on the desires of Delta pilots. Very exciting times.
Carl
The DPA constitution may well have more edits depending upon member input to the board that is currently managing the constitution. Everyone will know what's in the constitution right up until they vote yes or no. If you like what you see, you can vote yes. If not, vote no.
It is such an exciting time to think there's a chance Delta pilots may be able to build their new union based on the desires of Delta pilots. Very exciting times.
Carl
09-15-2013 | 06:00 AM
#564
No longer cares
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 12,109
Likes: 0
From: 767er Captain
After a small hiatus from this thread, I came back and I am pleasantly surprised to see what I believe could be the death rattle of the doughnuts. I can only hope that the DPA has a DNR as well....
Time to move forward.
Time to move forward.
09-15-2013 | 06:42 AM
#565
Banned
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 474
Likes: 0
Are the insiders at the DPA so inept that they can't produce a constitution three years into their organizing drive?
Are the insiders at the DPA so inept that they think they can put a massive dues increase in their constitution and no one would notice?
Are the insiders at the DPA so inept that they think they could put lucrative compensation packages in their constitution and no one would notice?
Are the insiders at the DPA so inept that they think they can publish a constitution and then late at night unilaterally change it without following their own process and no one would notice?
The DPA stated that they would be ready to negotiate C2012 and expected a vote in time to represent the pilots without missing a beat. I guess they intended to represent the pilots without a constitution. This would be hilarious if it weren't so irresponsible.
09-15-2013 | 07:22 AM
#566
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 165
Likes: 0
Work on the DPA constitution started last year...not 4 years ago.
The DPA constitution may well have more edits depending upon member input to the board that is currently managing the constitution. Everyone will know what's in the constitution right up until they vote yes or no. If you like what you see, you can vote yes. If not, vote no.
It is such an exciting time to think there's a chance Delta pilots may be able to build their new union based on the desires of Delta pilots. Very exciting times.
Carl
The DPA constitution may well have more edits depending upon member input to the board that is currently managing the constitution. Everyone will know what's in the constitution right up until they vote yes or no. If you like what you see, you can vote yes. If not, vote no.
It is such an exciting time to think there's a chance Delta pilots may be able to build their new union based on the desires of Delta pilots. Very exciting times.
Carl
DPA Begins Writing Constitution and By-Laws
October 29, 2010 - Webmaster
Today the Delta Pilots Association begins the process of writing its Constitution and By-Laws. All Delta Air Lines Pilots can have a hand in writing these important and historical documents by signing up for membership in DPA. All members that participate in this process will be considered founding contributors and will be honored by finding their names attached as signatories on the final version of our Constitution to be released after DPA wins the National Mediation Board provided election.
October 29, 2010 - Webmaster
Today the Delta Pilots Association begins the process of writing its Constitution and By-Laws. All Delta Air Lines Pilots can have a hand in writing these important and historical documents by signing up for membership in DPA. All members that participate in this process will be considered founding contributors and will be honored by finding their names attached as signatories on the final version of our Constitution to be released after DPA wins the National Mediation Board provided election.
You told me if I didn't like it then I could take it to my block rep. Then you back peddled and agreed with me that was impossible as there is no organization then you come back and say it's still a work in progress. Well, who do I contact cause it sure isn't you and when I do how do I know that it won't be ignored like the comments taken straight off the DPA website were?
I asked one or two questions well before anyone you accuse of being an ALPA mob started asking the same questions. The DPA idea has been around for 4 years now and the "unfinished but final version of the constitution" has been going for over 2.5 and you still haven't made a Policy Manual which the constitution references for the rest of the missing rules.
Another website makes issue of the fact that between 2010 when the constitution was announced and 2011 when parts started showing up that one of the first things the DPA wrote was how to dissolve the union leading many to wonder if this was about creating a new union or just getting rid of all unions.
Section 7. Dissolution
1. The Association may be dissolved at any time by a two-thirds (2/3) Majority Vote of the active members in Good Standing.
1. The Association may be dissolved at any time by a two-thirds (2/3) Majority Vote of the active members in Good Standing.
Here's a new one I didn't see before. The DPA uses the words confidentiality agreement for it's officers and reps. Isn't that just the same as an NDA?
Last edited by hitimefurl; 09-15-2013 at 07:32 AM.
09-15-2013 | 08:15 AM
#567
Back on TDY
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 12,487
Likes: 0
From: 747-400 Captain
Bulk response to ALPA rent-a-mob:
Original timeline from 2009 wasn't met on a number of things. There is no question that the time to get half the Delta pilots to sign a card took longer than we hoped. There's just no way to predict what is unknowable. What matters is that we're very close now and it was a long, slow and steady information campaign. Delta pilots will have a choice soon. It is very exciting.
Regarding the DPA constitution, I'd like to request that the mob please list exactly what items from the DPA constitution have been edited or change from the original document. Please list the original wording, then the changes to that wording. We can discuss them one at at time.
Carl
Regarding the DPA constitution, I'd like to request that the mob please list exactly what items from the DPA constitution have been edited or change from the original document. Please list the original wording, then the changes to that wording. We can discuss them one at at time.
Carl
09-15-2013 | 08:20 AM
#568
Banned
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 474
Likes: 0
January 12
"Celebrate with us! The DPA Constitution is posted on the DPA website! This is the finish line! See what sets DPA apart from ALPA! If you are considering running for any DPA position, this document describes how it will work! Let's go get those last few cards!"
09-15-2013 | 08:27 AM
#569
Banned
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 474
Likes: 0
Regarding the DPA constitution, I'd like to request that the mob please list exactly what items from the DPA constitution have been edited or change from the original document. Please list the original wording, then the changes to that wording. We can discuss them one at at time.
Carl
Delta Pilots Association shared a link. January 12
Celebrate with us! The DPA Constitution is posted on the DPA website! This is the finish line! See what sets DPA apart from ALPA! If you are considering running for any DPA position, this document describes how it will work! Let's go get those last few cards!
Last edited by 76drvr; 09-15-2013 at 08:58 AM.
09-15-2013 | 09:18 AM
#570
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 165
Likes: 0
Original timeline from 2009 wasn't met on a number of things. There is no question that the time to get half the Delta pilots to sign a card took longer than we hoped. There's just no way to predict what is unknowable. What matters is that we're very close now and it was a long, slow and steady information campaign. Delta pilots will have a choice soon. It is very exciting.
Regarding the DPA constitution, I'd like to request that the mob please list exactly what items from the DPA constitution have been edited or change from the original document. Please list the original wording, then the changes to that wording. We can discuss them one at at time.
Carl
Regarding the DPA constitution, I'd like to request that the mob please list exactly what items from the DPA constitution have been edited or change from the original document. Please list the original wording, then the changes to that wording. We can discuss them one at at time.
Carl
How about some other great DPA proclamations that are still on the website like ALPA Leaders Decide to Raise Dues on Members by October 2012 when the reality is that ALPA actually lowered dues for Delta pilots? When is the DPA going to explain that?
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