Boeing: The US pilot's enemy
11-21-2013 | 03:58 AM
#11
Line Holder
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,488
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From: tri current
We all know about the legalized prostitution of our White House and Congress. Since they'll always be addicted to the "clients" who pay them the most, the focus on politicians is a waste of time. If we are to stop foreign airlines from operating the US air transportation system, we have to stop trying to buy more politicians than they do. We can't cutoff the Middle East's financing of our politicians, but we can cutoff Boeing's financing of our politicians.
This is one issue where airline management and airline labor interests align. The Middle East airlines are buying Boeing aircraft under the overt proviso that they will be granted access to US markets as a result. If they get that access, it will likely eliminate a number of US airlines. The same US airlines that made Boeing the success they are today. Now Boeing is working to cut our collective throats to increase sales. US airline management and labor needs to join forces and state that all US airlines will boycott the purchase of Boeing aircraft unless Boeing agrees to stop their lavish spending on and arm twisting of politicians to allow foreign access to our markets.
Boeing doesn't care who actually runs our air transportation system because they've calculated they will still be the largest provider of aircraft to whoever ultimately survives. Management and labor need to show Boeing they've calculated wrong...and give them a huge public relations black eye in the process. Thoughts?
Carl
This is one issue where airline management and airline labor interests align. The Middle East airlines are buying Boeing aircraft under the overt proviso that they will be granted access to US markets as a result. If they get that access, it will likely eliminate a number of US airlines. The same US airlines that made Boeing the success they are today. Now Boeing is working to cut our collective throats to increase sales. US airline management and labor needs to join forces and state that all US airlines will boycott the purchase of Boeing aircraft unless Boeing agrees to stop their lavish spending on and arm twisting of politicians to allow foreign access to our markets.
Boeing doesn't care who actually runs our air transportation system because they've calculated they will still be the largest provider of aircraft to whoever ultimately survives. Management and labor need to show Boeing they've calculated wrong...and give them a huge public relations black eye in the process. Thoughts?
Carl
Please provide detailed evidence to prove your accusations.
Typhoonpilot
11-21-2013 | 04:20 AM
#12
Gets Weekends Off
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11-21-2013 | 04:38 AM
#13
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Oct 2005
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From: Left, left, left right left....
11-21-2013 | 05:37 AM
#14
Line Holder
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,154
Likes: 192
We all know about the legalized prostitution of our White House and Congress. Since they'll always be addicted to the "clients" who pay them the most, the focus on politicians is a waste of time. If we are to stop foreign airlines from operating the US air transportation system, we have to stop trying to buy more politicians than they do. We can't cutoff the Middle East's financing of our politicians, but we can cutoff Boeing's financing of our politicians.
This is one issue where airline management and airline labor interests align. The Middle East airlines are buying Boeing aircraft under the overt proviso that they will be granted access to US markets as a result. If they get that access, it will likely eliminate a number of US airlines. The same US airlines that made Boeing the success they are today. Now Boeing is working to cut our collective throats to increase sales. US airline management and labor needs to join forces and state that all US airlines will boycott the purchase of Boeing aircraft unless Boeing agrees to stop their lavish spending on and arm twisting of politicians to allow foreign access to our markets.
Boeing doesn't care who actually runs our air transportation system because they've calculated they will still be the largest provider of aircraft to whoever ultimately survives. Management and labor need to show Boeing they've calculated wrong...and give them a huge public relations black eye in the process. Thoughts?
Carl
This is one issue where airline management and airline labor interests align. The Middle East airlines are buying Boeing aircraft under the overt proviso that they will be granted access to US markets as a result. If they get that access, it will likely eliminate a number of US airlines. The same US airlines that made Boeing the success they are today. Now Boeing is working to cut our collective throats to increase sales. US airline management and labor needs to join forces and state that all US airlines will boycott the purchase of Boeing aircraft unless Boeing agrees to stop their lavish spending on and arm twisting of politicians to allow foreign access to our markets.
Boeing doesn't care who actually runs our air transportation system because they've calculated they will still be the largest provider of aircraft to whoever ultimately survives. Management and labor need to show Boeing they've calculated wrong...and give them a huge public relations black eye in the process. Thoughts?
Carl
The above quote is from memory, so it might be off a little, but it is a condensed version of your post.
This is our system and how it works. As the limits that came to be (largely due to the great economic crash and ensuing world catastrophe of WWII) from the 30's through the 60's are dismantled one by one, the protections that pilots have had from overseas competition will probably suffer the same fate that most other workers already have.
Most people I know are very supportive of this system and will react vehemently at any suggestion of reining it in. (even as they bemoan the fact that they can't make ends meet with his job at BassPro and his wife's job at Wallmart....and both of their employers subsidized from their property taxes)
There will be no public outcry, as we have come to accept that worker drones are to be sacrificed in the name of the free market. (besides, thoseairline jerks should finally be made to live like the rest of us, overpaid bus drivers and all)
The airlines themselves wil buy the airplanes from the manufacturer that gives them the best deal/mission capable product. If it is Boeing, they will buy from Boeing no matter what. There will be no boycott as that would imply both a long term vision and a short term interuption of the present gravy train(for senior Mgmt and institutional shareholders such as hedge funds)
Carl, while you are correct on the threat, without a sea-change in public attitudes we are bystanders and can only hope that these 3 ave bit off more than they can chew and it will overwhelm them.
As an aside, I see ALPA magazine just did a short mention of the US Merchant Marine fleet and it's demise as a world player. I have been citing what happened to them for at least 20 years, maybe 25.(also how they handled the training and certification of officers and ONE list of officers and sailors) Only as the threat looms closer to us, do we finally consider what we have been supporting for the last 30 plus years.
Sorry for the ramble, but the above doesn't even scratch the surface as to how deep the problem(s) are and how precarious is our collective economic future.
11-21-2013 | 05:46 AM
#15
The REAL Bluedriver
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 6,935
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From: Airbus Capt
"a capitalist will sell you the rope that will be used to hang him"
The above quote is from memory, so it might be off a little, but it is a condensed version of your post.
This is our system and how it works. As the limits that came to be (largely due to the great economic crash and ensuing world catastrophe of WWII) from the 30's through the 60's are dismantled one by one, the protections that pilots have had from overseas competition will probably suffer the same fate that most other workers already have.
Most people I know are very supportive of this system and will react vehemently at any suggestion of reining it in. (even as they bemoan the fact that they can't make ends meet with his job at BassPro and his wife's job at Wallmart....and both of their employers subsidized from their property taxes)
There will be no public outcry, as we have come to accept that worker drones are to be sacrificed in the name of the free market. (besides, thoseairline jerks should finally be made to live like the rest of us, overpaid bus drivers and all)
The airlines themselves wil buy the airplanes from the manufacturer that gives them the best deal/mission capable product. If it is Boeing, they will buy from Boeing no matter what. There will be no boycott as that would imply both a long term vision and a short term interuption of the present gravy train(for senior Mgmt and institutional shareholders such as hedge funds)
Carl, while you are correct on the threat, without a sea-change in public attitudes we are bystanders and can only hope that these 3 ave bit off more than they can chew and it will overwhelm them.
As an aside, I see ALPA magazine just did a short mention of the US Merchant Marine fleet and it's demise as a world player. I have been citing what happened to them for at least 20 years, maybe 25.(also how they handled the training and certification of officers and ONE list of officers and sailors) Only as the threat looms closer to us, do we finally consider what we have been supporting for the last 30 plus years.
Sorry for the ramble, but the above doesn't even scratch the surface as to how deep the problem(s) are and how precarious is our collective economic future.
The above quote is from memory, so it might be off a little, but it is a condensed version of your post.
This is our system and how it works. As the limits that came to be (largely due to the great economic crash and ensuing world catastrophe of WWII) from the 30's through the 60's are dismantled one by one, the protections that pilots have had from overseas competition will probably suffer the same fate that most other workers already have.
Most people I know are very supportive of this system and will react vehemently at any suggestion of reining it in. (even as they bemoan the fact that they can't make ends meet with his job at BassPro and his wife's job at Wallmart....and both of their employers subsidized from their property taxes)
There will be no public outcry, as we have come to accept that worker drones are to be sacrificed in the name of the free market. (besides, thoseairline jerks should finally be made to live like the rest of us, overpaid bus drivers and all)
The airlines themselves wil buy the airplanes from the manufacturer that gives them the best deal/mission capable product. If it is Boeing, they will buy from Boeing no matter what. There will be no boycott as that would imply both a long term vision and a short term interuption of the present gravy train(for senior Mgmt and institutional shareholders such as hedge funds)
Carl, while you are correct on the threat, without a sea-change in public attitudes we are bystanders and can only hope that these 3 ave bit off more than they can chew and it will overwhelm them.
As an aside, I see ALPA magazine just did a short mention of the US Merchant Marine fleet and it's demise as a world player. I have been citing what happened to them for at least 20 years, maybe 25.(also how they handled the training and certification of officers and ONE list of officers and sailors) Only as the threat looms closer to us, do we finally consider what we have been supporting for the last 30 plus years.
Sorry for the ramble, but the above doesn't even scratch the surface as to how deep the problem(s) are and how precarious is our collective economic future.
11-21-2013 | 06:33 AM
#17
Line Holder
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,488
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From: tri current
It still doesn't address this statement with any evidence:
The Middle East airlines are buying Boeing aircraft under the overt proviso that they will be granted access to US markets as a result. If they get that access, it will likely eliminate a number of US airlines.
Boeing doesn't care who actually runs our air transportation system because they've calculated they will still be the largest provider of aircraft to whoever ultimately survives.
Typhoonpilot
11-21-2013 | 06:59 AM
#19
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2008
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From: B787. Left seat.
To make a point, should I resign my job, on principle , just because Boeing is selling aircraft to the airlines in the gulf? Would it be okay if they bought A350's and 380's only? I don't consider what I am doing as prostituting, I worked for an airline that failed, I have children to support and a retirement to plan for, I accepted a good job, with relatively good pay because it's better than having to work at Walmart or Publix, paper or plastic?
11-21-2013 | 06:59 AM
#20
Line Holder
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,488
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From: tri current
Carl is advocating a boycott on Boeing products by U.S. airlines because they sell those same airplanes to foreign competitors and sometimes they are financed with Ex Im financing.
Let's just take a look at the ridiculousness of that line of thought. Yes, I do fly for Emirates but I am also an American and I believe that Boeing is one of the last remaining manufacturing companies that made America great. Any move to hurt them financially by Americans must be looked at closely.
The U.S. import/export gap has a profound effect on every American. Boeing makes up a huge dollar amount of U.S. exports. A negative trade balance adversely affects the value of the U.S. dollar. Any move to further erode the trade balance will also further erode the value of the U.S. Dollar.
Okay now for some of the assertions in the ALPA white paper. Anyone ever read the book, " How to Lie with Statistics"? The white paper is guilty of that in this statement, paraphrased. Since the beginning of Open Skies negotiations ( 1992 ) the U.S. share of the International Widebody Fleet has decreased from 45% to 17 and is forecast to drop to 5% by 2025. Sounds ominous doesn't it? All those widebody jobs lost to foreign competition. Anyone want to bet the U.S. majors have more widebody airliners in their fleet now than in 1992? Those percentages that ALPA chose to use do not take into account the incredible growth in air travel since 1992, especially in foreign countries. In China, for example, there were only a little over 400 commercial aircraft as late as 1996. Today there are over 2000, including a substantial increase in widebody airliners, that amazingly are not all used on services to the USA.
Since I do know Emirates fairly well lets look at the ALPA argument closer in respect to them. Emirates operates to 7 U.S. cities, soon to be 8. Those would all be considered Ultra Long Haul routes which require 2.5 aircraft per city pair per frequency. So that means if they were all served by Boeing aircraft and including the double daily to JFK the total requirement would be 22.5 aircraft. Ah, but JFK is served by the A380 and LAX goes to the A380 on December 2nd. So, even after Boston is added the total number of Boeing 777s required for Emirate's services to the USA is 15 aircraft. That is out of a fleet of 130+ B777s.
So just to get this straight. There are some here who advocate penalizing a great U.S. manufacturer; all their employees; and the employees in the USA of all of their supply chain affiliates just because a foreign competitor is using a little more than 10% of the planes they buy from them to serve the USA.
I just want to make sure that is correct, because I am having a difficult time getting my mind around the concept and how this benefits America or the airline pilots of the USA.
Typhoonpilot
Let's just take a look at the ridiculousness of that line of thought. Yes, I do fly for Emirates but I am also an American and I believe that Boeing is one of the last remaining manufacturing companies that made America great. Any move to hurt them financially by Americans must be looked at closely.
The U.S. import/export gap has a profound effect on every American. Boeing makes up a huge dollar amount of U.S. exports. A negative trade balance adversely affects the value of the U.S. dollar. Any move to further erode the trade balance will also further erode the value of the U.S. Dollar.
Okay now for some of the assertions in the ALPA white paper. Anyone ever read the book, " How to Lie with Statistics"? The white paper is guilty of that in this statement, paraphrased. Since the beginning of Open Skies negotiations ( 1992 ) the U.S. share of the International Widebody Fleet has decreased from 45% to 17 and is forecast to drop to 5% by 2025. Sounds ominous doesn't it? All those widebody jobs lost to foreign competition. Anyone want to bet the U.S. majors have more widebody airliners in their fleet now than in 1992? Those percentages that ALPA chose to use do not take into account the incredible growth in air travel since 1992, especially in foreign countries. In China, for example, there were only a little over 400 commercial aircraft as late as 1996. Today there are over 2000, including a substantial increase in widebody airliners, that amazingly are not all used on services to the USA.
Since I do know Emirates fairly well lets look at the ALPA argument closer in respect to them. Emirates operates to 7 U.S. cities, soon to be 8. Those would all be considered Ultra Long Haul routes which require 2.5 aircraft per city pair per frequency. So that means if they were all served by Boeing aircraft and including the double daily to JFK the total requirement would be 22.5 aircraft. Ah, but JFK is served by the A380 and LAX goes to the A380 on December 2nd. So, even after Boston is added the total number of Boeing 777s required for Emirate's services to the USA is 15 aircraft. That is out of a fleet of 130+ B777s.
So just to get this straight. There are some here who advocate penalizing a great U.S. manufacturer; all their employees; and the employees in the USA of all of their supply chain affiliates just because a foreign competitor is using a little more than 10% of the planes they buy from them to serve the USA.
I just want to make sure that is correct, because I am having a difficult time getting my mind around the concept and how this benefits America or the airline pilots of the USA.
Typhoonpilot
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