A Novel Approach to DAL/NWA SLI
04-25-2008, 07:40 AM
#11
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Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: A330 capt
Posts: 236
Originally Posted by ITSALLGOOD
Wiggy,
Also, your statement that a DAL guy could go from 5.0001 to 10.0 is impossible. At the current staff levels, each 5% category would include 270 NWA and 370 DAL. If your DAL pilot was at the top of his 5% category at DAL, the worst he could do is be behind 270 NWA guys moving him from 5.0 to 7.1.
Also, your statement that a DAL guy could go from 5.0001 to 10.0 is impossible. At the current staff levels, each 5% category would include 270 NWA and 370 DAL. If your DAL pilot was at the top of his 5% category at DAL, the worst he could do is be behind 270 NWA guys moving him from 5.0 to 7.1.
04-25-2008, 07:44 AM
#12
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Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: 777 Sim Instructor
Posts: 745
ITSALLGOOD, I believe in sharing pain but I don't believe in windfalls. My problem with that approach is: DL is taking delivery of 6 777's in Dec. thru Mar. In your sli the senior ex-Rep guys could all step up to those a/c instead of DL guys.That is a windfall for NW. I would agree to that if you fence off our 777's and NW's 787's. Relative seniority = no fences, Doh or any hybrid = fences.
04-25-2008, 03:55 PM
#13
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by ITSALLGOOD
Maybe this idea has been floated and I missed it, but what about a mix of DOH and relative seniority?? Would work like this:
Break up both lists by relative seniority in 5% groups. Top 5% of Delta list is integrated with top 5% of NWA list by DOH. Do the same for each 5% on down the line. Assuming it takes a significantly earlier DOH for a current NWA guy to hold the same relative position as a DAL guy, I see some of the pros and cons as follows:
Pros: A) For NWA guys, you could not lose relative seniority and most would actually gain 2-3%. You would also be senior to all the delta guys who currently hold the same relative seniority; therefore, you would advance ahead of your new DAL peers.
B) For DAL guys, most of you would find yourself senior to NWA guys hired before you. Because you hold a relative seniority about 5-10% greater than NWA folks with roughly the same DOH, most DAL guys would find themselves at the bottom of the 5% category they started in, but above NWA guys who were locked into the 5% category below them.
I.E. DAL DOH of Jul 1999 holds 72.5% would go no lower than 74.9%
while NWA DOH of Jul 1997 holds 77.5% would go no higher than 75.0 %
(Assuming a lower percentage is higher seniority, and dates and percentages are hypothetical).
Cons: A) Most NWA folks (accept top of list and bottom of list) will find themselves junior to DAL folks with DOH about 1-2 years after them.
B) Most DAL folks will give up 2-3% of relative seniority.
Bottom line, the seniority picture has changed...there will be some pain. The best way to absorb it is to spread it. I realize there are millions of little details, but I think this could be a workable framework....and it is very simple.
Is it even worth discussing???
Break up both lists by relative seniority in 5% groups. Top 5% of Delta list is integrated with top 5% of NWA list by DOH. Do the same for each 5% on down the line. Assuming it takes a significantly earlier DOH for a current NWA guy to hold the same relative position as a DAL guy, I see some of the pros and cons as follows:
Pros: A) For NWA guys, you could not lose relative seniority and most would actually gain 2-3%. You would also be senior to all the delta guys who currently hold the same relative seniority; therefore, you would advance ahead of your new DAL peers.
B) For DAL guys, most of you would find yourself senior to NWA guys hired before you. Because you hold a relative seniority about 5-10% greater than NWA folks with roughly the same DOH, most DAL guys would find themselves at the bottom of the 5% category they started in, but above NWA guys who were locked into the 5% category below them.
I.E. DAL DOH of Jul 1999 holds 72.5% would go no lower than 74.9%
while NWA DOH of Jul 1997 holds 77.5% would go no higher than 75.0 %
(Assuming a lower percentage is higher seniority, and dates and percentages are hypothetical).
Cons: A) Most NWA folks (accept top of list and bottom of list) will find themselves junior to DAL folks with DOH about 1-2 years after them.
B) Most DAL folks will give up 2-3% of relative seniority.
Bottom line, the seniority picture has changed...there will be some pain. The best way to absorb it is to spread it. I realize there are millions of little details, but I think this could be a workable framework....and it is very simple.
Is it even worth discussing???
Carl
04-26-2008, 05:48 AM
#14
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Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Retired
Posts: 1,858
A Thought
There are only 2 ways to advance in this business. Attrition and growth. First, attrition. DAL has already experienced a large jump in seniority already due to the mass exodus. NWA is just now getting ready to experience theirs from the large retirement numbers over the next 5 or so years. Both airlines have negotiated their BK contracts with these conditions in mind, hence the differences in pay, frozen retirements, defined contributions and career expectations just to name a few. Attrition is pretty firm and can be planned on by looking at birthdays. Attrition is not affected by economic conditions or mgt whims. Growth on the other hand is variable. Mgt changes growth plans on what seems like a daily basis. It is greatly affected by economic conditions. While growth needs to be considered in seniority integration, it is not as easy to pin down as attrition. Economic incentives will come and go (mgt giveth and mgt taketh away), but seniority is forever. If this deal is going to get decided out of arbitration, both sides will have to concentrate on the seniority side of the equation and leave the economic incentives for the joint contract negotiations. The main crux of the problem is DAL has already experienced their attrition covering the next 5 or so years and have reaped the benefits of that advancement already. NWA is still waiting to experience that attrition and reap the ensuing benefits. That crux is also what both sides current contracts are based on. It is no surprise that DAL wants to base career expectations primarily on growth and NWA wants to base it primarily on attrition. Both sides need to realize where the other side is coming from and realize that what is fair is going to be different for each side. IMHO they need to get the SLI done first, then negotiate the joint contract as a unified pilot group. Do not read this as a veiled attack on DALs LOA 19. It isn't. That is water under the bridge. Words are cheap and it is time for action. Its time to NEGOTIATE (that implies give and take) a seniority list divorced of the economic package/incentives, then get down to business with the joint contract for ALL future Delta pilots. Get the horse in front of the cart again and start acting like a unified ALPA front. If we don't, it will be the typical mgt divide and conquer playbook all over again. Just a thought.
04-26-2008, 03:48 PM
#15
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by ExAF
There are only 2 ways to advance in this business. Attrition and growth. First, attrition. DAL has already experienced a large jump in seniority already due to the mass exodus. NWA is just now getting ready to experience theirs from the large retirement numbers over the next 5 or so years. Both airlines have negotiated their BK contracts with these conditions in mind, hence the differences in pay, frozen retirements, defined contributions and career expectations just to name a few. Attrition is pretty firm and can be planned on by looking at birthdays. Attrition is not affected by economic conditions or mgt whims. Growth on the other hand is variable. Mgt changes growth plans on what seems like a daily basis. It is greatly affected by economic conditions. While growth needs to be considered in seniority integration, it is not as easy to pin down as attrition. Economic incentives will come and go (mgt giveth and mgt taketh away), but seniority is forever. If this deal is going to get decided out of arbitration, both sides will have to concentrate on the seniority side of the equation and leave the economic incentives for the joint contract negotiations. The main crux of the problem is DAL has already experienced their attrition covering the next 5 or so years and have reaped the benefits of that advancement already. NWA is still waiting to experience that attrition and reap the ensuing benefits. That crux is also what both sides current contracts are based on. It is no surprise that DAL wants to base career expectations primarily on growth and NWA wants to base it primarily on attrition. Both sides need to realize where the other side is coming from and realize that what is fair is going to be different for each side. IMHO they need to get the SLI done first, then negotiate the joint contract as a unified pilot group. Do not read this as a veiled attack on DALs LOA 19. It isn't. That is water under the bridge. Words are cheap and it is time for action. Its time to NEGOTIATE (that implies give and take) a seniority list divorced of the economic package/incentives, then get down to business with the joint contract for ALL future Delta pilots. Get the horse in front of the cart again and start acting like a unified ALPA front. If we don't, it will be the typical mgt divide and conquer playbook all over again. Just a thought.
SLI first, contract last.
Carl
04-28-2008, 05:37 AM
#16
Looking for a laugh
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,099
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
I couldn't agree more. Last time we stumbled on the SLI after having agreed to all points of a new joint contract. Since it looks like we are planning to do things in the same order this time around, it looks like a recipe for yet another failure.
SLI first, contract last.
Carl
SLI first, contract last.
Carl
I have to disagree. If it's done that way, then pay and work rules (QOL) get held hostage by the SLI. Look at AAA/AWA. Until the SLI is finished over there, they are on two different contracts, with lower payrates, and the company is whipsawing them over the new A330s. Better to get a joint contract, which we can both work under while we sort out the SLI. Just my opinion though.
04-28-2008, 09:31 AM
#17
Get's Every Day Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Retired
Posts: 1,858
Originally Posted by Justdoinmyjob
Carl,
I have to disagree. If it's done that way, then pay and work rules (QOL) get held hostage by the SLI. Look at AAA/AWA. Until the SLI is finished over there, they are on two different contracts, with lower payrates, and the company is whipsawing them over the new A330s. Better to get a joint contract, which we can both work under while we sort out the SLI. Just my opinion though.
I have to disagree. If it's done that way, then pay and work rules (QOL) get held hostage by the SLI. Look at AAA/AWA. Until the SLI is finished over there, they are on two different contracts, with lower payrates, and the company is whipsawing them over the new A330s. Better to get a joint contract, which we can both work under while we sort out the SLI. Just my opinion though.
The contract was done. Everyone agreed. No SLI so no contract. I guess we'll just wait for LOA 20 and try again.
04-28-2008, 10:08 AM
#18
Looking for a laugh
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,099
Originally Posted by ExAF
Of course you disagree...It worked so well that way the first couple of times. The contract was done. Everyone agreed. No SLI so no contract. I guess we'll just wait for LOA 20 and try again.
The contract was done. Everyone agreed. No SLI so no contract. I guess we'll just wait for LOA 20 and try again.
04-28-2008, 02:00 PM
#19
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,323
Originally Posted by Justdoinmyjob
This effectively prevents the Delta pilots from using LOA 19 to pressure the NW pilots to accept an SLI slanted towards us. I would think that that is what the NW pilots would want.
04-30-2008, 05:25 AM
#20
Get's Every Day Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Retired
Posts: 1,858
Cart or Horse...I don't care
Originally Posted by Justdoinmyjob
No offense, but your comment shows that you didn't understand how the Transactional Agreement was structured. The Joint Contract and SLI were tied to each other, which means that they both had to be agreed upon to be effective. Now we are working under a different structure and the two are decoupled, which means that the Joint Contract will be voted on separately, (we don't actually get to vote on the SLI,) thereby keeping any one group from holding payraises for everybody hostage until the SLI is concluded to their satisfaction. This effectively prevents the Delta pilots from using LOA 19 to pressure the NW pilots to accept an SLI slanted towards us. I would think that that is what the NW pilots would want.
Last edited by ExAF; 04-30-2008 at 05:27 AM. Reason: spelling
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