Superpilot92

For some reason that isnt seen as a windfall yet our rumored proposal is? Its funny that they see their list as "fair" and what we are rumored to want is an extreme. We'll see how extreme ours is tomorrow i guess but I agree their proposal was just as extreme as it can get as far as the NWA pilots are concerned. ALL DAL pilots got an increase in overall seniority while ALL NWA pilots got an decrease in overall seniority on top of 10% of the list stapled and thats considered "fair"?

DAL went for the gold for their pilot group and i am sure our side will do the same thing, especially now. Hopefully no gold medals will be given out though and we all will have to settle for silver.

Superpilot92

No problem, and i will try and get a few points across here. If you look at what you and everyone else at DAL is saying, you guys try and portray NWA as a dieing breed and we have nothing to look forward to in career expectations. While you all at DAL have nothing but good times and growth ahead of you. Its not very hard to see that mentality expressed by the Dal team. The truth is NWA is doing better than most and our earnings report will be out tomorrow and from what our side put out yesterday it should look good. We are a profitable airline and consistently make as much if not more money than DAL even though we are 2/3's the size. Also the avg age of the entire NWA pilot list is around 54 years old! Based on numbers alone, not counting growth or status quo, i was set to be over 55% up the list in the next 10-12 years. SO in that period of time i would be a lot higher up the list at that point than a DAL pilot hired around the same time i was. That DAL guy may be on a widebody FO seat now but thats where he will sit for a long time. We have a "crystal ball" or seniority forecaster on the alpa website that shows where you are scheduled to be and when. Mine showed me being 45% on the list in 10-12 years. I was set to be in roughly the top 1/3 of the list for the last 25 years of my career retiring at number 3. A DAL newhire around my hire date isnt looking at that. Not that this is about ME but those are the things that i have personally looked at. Every stage of the NWA list would get reamed with the DAL proposed list so yes it is considered an extreme from our side of the fence. I am young enough to end up fine either way but the majority of the NWA list isnt.

Anyway, point being that both sides have their strong and weak points but the image you DAL guys try and put out about NWA doesnt show the whole picture it only shows what you guys want to point out. Bottom line is both carriers had strong outlooks premerger and we all should have strong outlooks post merger. I hope it turns out that way because i am here for the longhaul regardless.

In the end i think this will be great for everyone but anyone who thinks they should be better off than someone else on the other side as a result of this merger is wrong IMHO. All of these points i am sure will be brought up in the arbitration meetings but when the decision comes out i am sure we will all find a way to deal with it and move on.

PaintCan

Gold and Silver, wish I had both. It stores and spends well when there is an economic melt down. Too bad this SLI had to go to arbitration. Nobody wins.

Cogf16

What is "overall seniority" when you are going to a NEW airline? It doesn't really matter what your DOH at NWA is, that airline is/will be gone. What matters, imho, is relative position, and I think our proposal, in its final iteration, will protect relative position within a few % points. Remember your relative % at NWA, when put at the new Delta, will be more "valuable" in our heavy intl/widebody fleet. I think you guys just need to get over the NW date of hire, that is gone

Mark

Delta

Superpilot92

Your side didnt do relative position though where it was "fair" to everyone. To solve alot of problems they could have ratioed all pre-911 hires and did DOH for everyone post 9-11 and i think that would have gone over better for the majority. I realize the first post 9/11 hires would have probably not liked it but anyone who thinks that someone hired almost 10 years before should be junior to a "newhire" has an inflated reality. I can honestly say if i was a DAL newhire i wouldnt think that a guy hired at NWA 10 years before me should go behind me, but thats just me.

Now your side said that everyone is around the same % which is not accurate. If it was more realistic than i wouldnt completely disagree with you. The FACTS are that EVERY NWA pilot took a hit in seniority (1%-6% Negative) EVERY DAL pilot got a bump in seniority (1%-6% Positive). Also Stapling the bottom 10% of the NWA list behind the LAST DAL newhire hired less than 6 months ago doesnt fall anywhere near relative %. So you can see where the problem comes in. Maybe DOH wouldnt be the "proposal" from the NWA side if something not so lopsided was established. I dont know and honestly none of us know. Maybe we will get a negotiated list between now and next month with something more level. Who knows. But to say your sides proposal was "fair" and we should just get over it isnt going to fly and is exactly why its in arbitration. The other thing is the DAL proposal will be top heavy on DAL pilots in the next 10-15 years because of the NWA retirements coming up which hoses the majority of our guys out of our retirement numbers.

Final note, i dont know how you figure that my relative % would be more valuable at DAL than at NWA because i feel my position and career at NWA is just as valuable, to me. I think the mentality that causes problems is when the DAL side acts as though you are coming in to save us and we should just get over it. This isnt like other mergers where one airline is failing and the other is coming in to save the day. We are in this together and both companies are strong airlines with long histories. Lets hope we continue that streak after this mess is all said and done. Cheers

newKnow

Super,

That was a great post. It will fall on deaf ears.

Edit: They were two great posts. Same result.

varkdriver

newKnow and Superpilot92
We get the message...loud and clear...Super, you've done a wonderful job getting your message out, but honestly, let's get the final list officially published...then we can all hopefully be pi$&ing and moaning about how we got screwed in the merger.

You are right about one thing too...we were and are two solvent, money making (some of the times) strong carriers with strengths that will hopefully magnify once joined.

Safe flying yall.

Selcall

To Super and Know,
Thank you for your posts. They are very informative and have not fallen on deaf ears.

When all this is said and done and we have one list I hope that both sides can get over their respective Kool Aid hangover's as quickly as possible. Both positions from the repsective MEC's Negotiation Committee's are viewed as highly offensive by the other. I really got a big kick out of the "Super Premium Wide Body Flying" moniker. That was funny.

At the same time I can see why a pilot at NWA that was hired in '00 to '01 would be highly torqued about the DAL proposal. I mean after enduring being displaced from several aircraft, furlough, rate cuts, frozen pension, and the pleasure of coming back to work under new work rules, you think things are changing. Then your company merges and you now are going to be junior (proposed) to a DAL pilot that either flew in the military during all this airline post 9-11 crap or the pilot flew for the bowels of the airlines industry: The fee for departure airlines aka regional airline. I can see why you would be ****ed off.


Enough of this speculation from both sides on what we really want is getting old. Lets just everyone step away from the punch bowl and see what happens. I think that in the end this whole thing will be better and exciting for all of us in this screwed up industry.

Cheers.

capncrunch

Rumor on the street is that the new Delta APA is going to consider the shifting of ER flying to some of NWAs bases. Since that flying will need to come from other bases, some will probably be from the JFK base which bids junior and go to Seattle which bids/will bid senior. That being said, the new hires will lose their International widebody flying and probably end up in an 88, just like our new hires who are in DC9s(same type).

Boil it all down and it shows there should not be a 500 pilot staple job.

ExAF

I wasn't offended at all. I was trying to reply "tongue in cheek" and add some humor as well. (Guess that didn't work very well.) Both sides see their cause as fair, the other as extreme and these threads aren't going to change that perception. I'm hoping for something in the middle and to finally get it all behind us. Cheers!