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Originally Posted by backtoregionals
(Post 2696302)
It is actually quite simple...either people learn it correctly, or we don’t get full CAT 2 privileges. I agree 200% the callouts SUCK, but again that doesn’t matter unfortunately.
Also, don’t you think it has to be taught correctly for it to be learned correctly? Where do we teach it in the SIM? JFK, IAD, IAH. All flat land airports. The whole concepts of using BARO only become real when flying a CAT II into ATL (or similar airport) where you have varying terrain. And, screwing it up during a line check should send both pilots back to the SIM to be requalified in CAT II...: Unfortunately, we are too short of pilots to do that. |
I need to look at you guys checklist we got it figured out on the CRJ. But there were problems
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Originally Posted by NovemberBravo
(Post 2696371)
I need to look at you guys checklist we got it figured out on the CRJ. But there were problems
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Originally Posted by calmwinds
(Post 2696372)
Do you really think the CRJ crews would pass today? We struggle on more than items on the checklist. When I sat right seat and we would fly practice approaches, we had captains take the controls too early, too late, use the radar altimeter, blow the PM callouts. It didn’t matter how much we would brief it.
Another round of Hogan's went out yesterday! |
Originally Posted by 20sx
(Post 2696379)
I don't find it difficult on the CRJ, just something that should be practiced more than once a year in the sim.
Another round of Hogan's went out yesterday! |
Originally Posted by calmwinds
(Post 2696372)
Do you really think the CRJ crews would pass today? We struggle on more than items on the checklist. When I sat right seat and we would fly practice approaches, we had captains take the controls too early, too late, use the radar altimeter, blow the PM callouts. It didn’t matter how much we would brief it.
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Of all the approaches I learned to fly on the 175 at Republic the Cat2 was the easiest. Only difference between that and Cat1 was the need to read a laundry list of items off the Cat2 briefing checklist on the supplemental procedures card and plug in ice speeds. Then we just flew the damn thing like a coupled Cat 1. Seriously...easiest thing ever.
If Republic can teach bugsmasher GA pilots like me to fly a Cat2, they're doing it the right way. Maybe it's time Mesa and everyone else who flies the 175 just stop trying to reinvent the wheel and use Republic's SOP because it works. |
Originally Posted by pangolin
(Post 2696638)
We practice them. I think it’s a pretty easy deal. Know the callouts. Did an actual one at BHM a few weeks ago. Don’t skip things on the briefing card thinking you know them. Law of recency.
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Originally Posted by calmwinds
(Post 2696447)
Glad about that. Hopefully, some more Mesa guys will escape. Do we know the class date given by United on the last batch?
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Since we’re on the topic, would it be so terrible to just have one pilot fly it, and fly it like normal? It’s nothing crazy, just a little lower.
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Originally Posted by calmwinds
(Post 2696447)
Glad about that. Hopefully, some more Mesa guys will escape. Do we know the class date given by United on the last batch?
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Originally Posted by 20sx
(Post 2696751)
Don’t have dates yet. Some that passed the interview still might not get the job. Too much sick leave, calling out sick on a holiday, medical or fmla....all disqualifying events. This program seems a bit illegal if fmla is not even allowed. Maybe you’ve heard otherwise about this.
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Originally Posted by deltajuliet
(Post 2696723)
Since we’re on the topic, would it be so terrible to just have one pilot fly it, and fly it like normal? It’s nothing crazy, just a little lower.
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Originally Posted by calmwinds
(Post 2696754)
I heard the absence stuff was all checked before the interview. That getting passed the interview process was pretty much a lock unless something showed up in background checks.
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Originally Posted by bnkangle
(Post 2696852)
1200 RVR is crazy. I hope that was demonstrated to you in the sim at some point.
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Originally Posted by 20sx
(Post 2696885)
Talk to Ian, see what he says.
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Originally Posted by calmwinds
(Post 2697108)
What does Ian know? I know he has been to Denver, but 3 of these guys I have spoke with think they are in the “pool”.
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Originally Posted by PhantomHawk
(Post 2697169)
I can’t speak for the Mesa CPP, but this isn’t how it works for the XJT CPP. Getting past the interview means you’re in “the pool”, but it doesn’t mean you’ve got a CJO yet. The letter that United sends you is VERY CLEAR about this fact. When your number comes up, United does a final review of your stuff, including absences and discipline as well as training records. This review goes back 24 months. I kinda doubt yours is any different. Of absences were checked before the interview, what would prevent a successful candidate from draining their sick time between the interview and the CJO? In other words, these guys might be in “the pool”.......but they are making a huge mistake if they think they’ve “got the job already”. You don’t have the job until your ass is sitting in a new-hire class.....and even then you’re still there on a probationary basis.
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Originally Posted by calmwinds
(Post 2697218)
That makes sense that they would recheck after the CJO. I suppose some jack asses decide to drain the sick leave without thinking United would recheck.
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Originally Posted by PhantomHawk
(Post 2697260)
That’s not what I said, either. The CJO doesn’t come until AFTER the final review. Let’s recap.....successful Hogan leads to an interview. Successful interview leads to placement in the “pool”. That’s not a UAL pool....it’s a Mesa pool. When your noumber gets close enough to be considered, you will be asked to update your application for final review. At this point, they will check to see if you have a degree, look at all your qualifications, training records, disciplinary file, and attendance record. Only after you pass that point are you given a CJO. CJO means conditional job offer, and that’s the first time you will hear the words JOB OFFER. At that point, the “conditional” part is the same as an off the street hire. Criminal records and that sort of thing will be checked. Prior to that, there is no CJO. You’re much closer than the others......but you’re not in until you’re in.
Since we had zero in the pool before this round of interviews, whenever they pluck people out of the pool, I would expect them to get their applications considered first. When is the next United new hire class? |
Originally Posted by calmwinds
(Post 2697308)
When is the next United new hire class?
XJT pilots on the CPP should be towards the end of 2005 DOH's |
I’m not going into details but one pilot does fly it. While the other looks out the window for the airport. I think Mesas approved procedure is sound and reasonable.
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Originally Posted by pangolin
(Post 2697318)
I’m not going into details but one pilot does fly it. While the other looks out the window for the airport. I think Mesas approved procedure is sound and reasonable.
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Originally Posted by No Land 3
(Post 2697383)
Having done it and participated in the trial period, I have to agree that it is a valid way of doing it, but I also fully understand how others on the outside would think it is absolutely crazy
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Originally Posted by deltajuliet
(Post 2696896)
I guess. So why add an exchange of controls during the most critical moment of the whole thing? Heck, a lot of people could land blind just using the “50, 40, 30...” callouts. And sometimes they do (ever landed in Phoenix during sunset?).
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Originally Posted by pangolin
(Post 2697730)
You people scare me. The captain is looking out the window - ready to land. The fo is TOTALLY on the instruments. It’s hardly an exchange it’s kick off the AP and land. Who’s the better on to land in this situation? If it’s not clear - you scare me.
Line check pilots should have the authority to take the crews off the line over a botched CAT II. And, line check pilots should have the same failure rate as the FAA and for the same reasons. If a crew messes up with an FAA observer in the jump seat, they should be pulled off the line. When the pilots see that the company is serious, then they will get serious. |
Republic CAT2 SOP is FO flies, CA watches FO, and then looks for the runway -- particularly after the "approaching minimums" auto call. If runway in sight, CA bumps FO's hands off the throttles, says "landing", and plants the airplane while the FO stays on instruments all the way to the ground. If the runway never comes into view, CA stays silent and FO waits for "minimums" auto call, then calls GA, TOGA, Flaps 2 and completes a coupled missed. Piece of cake.
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When it’s vfr isn’t time to practice. But when it’s Imc - nobody is talking to you during the callouts (crj) which all happen after handoff to the tower. Atc can pound sand at that point. We are flying the plane. The calls all start at 1000 above da. The pf makes only two calls. 100 above DH and missed approach. There’s no atc interference at that point. Ejet May differ. I’ve never seen your procedure.
Best practice time is in actual imc brcause you aren’t doing visuals and it’s not so busy. |
Originally Posted by njd1
(Post 2697899)
Republic CAT2 SOP is FO flies, CA watches FO, and then looks for the runway -- particularly after the "approaching minimums" auto call. If runway in sight, CA bumps FO's hands off the throttles, says "landing", and plants the airplane while the FO stays on instruments all the way to the ground. If the runway never comes into view, CA stays silent and FO waits for "minimums" auto call, then calls GA, TOGA, Flaps 2 and completes a coupled missed. Piece of cake.
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Originally Posted by pangolin
(Post 2697901)
When it’s vfr isn’t time to practice. But when it’s Imc - nobody is talking to you during the callouts (crj) which all happen after handoff to the tower. Atc can pound sand at that point. We are flying the plane. The calls all start at 1000 above da. The pf makes only two calls. 100 above DH and missed approach. There’s no atc interference at that point. Ejet May differ. I’ve never seen your procedure.
Best practice time is in actual imc brcause you aren’t doing visuals and it’s not so busy. |
If we do a cat2, might as well be a cat3 and let autoland do its thing, especially since we start flaring at the 50ft call out.
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Outside here. We use the same Cat 2 procedure at Xjet and have been for years. It's really not hard. Me and my sim partner did one during CTP, I was in the left seat, sim partner with no jet experience was in the right. We saw the runway and landed. It's really not a hard procedure at all. Relax.
We have an entire briefing and systems check that's performed before the approach, along with modified checklists and callouts. We also do the approach flaps 22 to facilitate an easier go around from 100 feet. We're also supposed to use this procedure any time the RVR is less than 4000 or 3/4 mile. |
Originally Posted by njd1
(Post 2697899)
Republic CAT2 SOP is FO flies, CA watches FO, and then looks for the runway -- particularly after the "approaching minimums" auto call. If runway in sight, CA bumps FO's hands off the throttles, says "landing", and plants the airplane while the FO stays on instruments all the way to the ground. If the runway never comes into view, CA stays silent and FO waits for "minimums" auto call, then calls GA, TOGA, Flaps 2 and completes a coupled missed. Piece of cake.
Some of these companies have these odd methods of doing things, that make no sense. Cat 2 and when you grow up Cat 3 PF should always be in control, all the way to the landing. None of that, exchange of controls 50, 30 ft of the ground. |
Originally Posted by flyguy727
(Post 2700408)
Bumps the hand of the throttles???
Some of these companies have these odd methods of doing things, that make no sense. Cat 2 and when you grow up Cat 3 PF should always be in control, all the way to the landing. None of that, exchange of controls 50, 30 ft of the ground. The thought process was and is simple. The person looking outside for the runway is in the best position to transition and land the airplane. And, on a CAT II, the transition of controls occurs between 200 and 100 feet off the runway - not at 50 or 30 feet. If it hasn’t occurred by 100 feet, a missed approach is executed. On a happier note, our pilots in the CPP pool received class dates at United. |
Originally Posted by calmwinds
(Post 2700417)
It is a holdover procedure that some of the majors used to use back in the dark ages of aviation. It simply has carried over to some regionals.
The thought process was and is simple. The person looking outside for the runway is in the best position to transition and land the airplane. And, on a CAT II, the transition of controls occurs between 200 and 100 feet off the runway - not at 50 or 30 feet. If it hasn’t occurred by 100 feet, a missed approach is executed. On a happier note, our pilots in the CPP pool received class dates at United. |
Originally Posted by calmwinds
(Post 2700417)
The thought process was and is simple. The person looking outside for the runway is in the best position to transition and land the airplane.
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Originally Posted by 20sx
(Post 2700556)
Class dates or interview dates? I haven't heard of class dates yet.
One thing for sure. This isn’t a scam just to attract pilots for Mesa. United is taking our best captains and without any regard to what it does to our program. |
Originally Posted by calmwinds
(Post 2700977)
I heard class dates. Interview were weeks ago. Our second round are getting interviews now.
One thing for sure. This isn’t a scam just to attract pilots for Mesa. United is taking our best captains and without any regard to what it does to our program. |
Best in what regard? Stick and rudder, extracurricular activities?
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Originally Posted by bnkangle
(Post 2701055)
Best in what regard? Stick and rudder, extracurricular activities?
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