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Military to civ conversion - rotor specific

Old 03-26-2017, 05:17 PM
  #11  
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Originally Posted by navigatro View Post
I'm going to disagree here.

I am a Mil fixed wing and civ rotor wing pilot.

Although they are both flying aircraft, they are different enough that I agree with the airlines. Also NAV/WSO/EWO time is NOT pilot time. It is helpful but not equivalent. I say this as a former Nav also.

BTW, the majority of the MIL rotor pilots I know who later went to FW were the weakest pilots in the unit. They had good hands but 120 knot minds, always behind the aircraft and poor energy management.
I've flown with other helo dudes in the regionals and at my current airline. Guess we are lucky we didn't fall out of the sky. And after asking various training department guys at both airlines I've been at how helo background dudes have been historically, they have said that they haven't had any more issues than other backgrounds. Perhaps the helo background people in your unit were helos bc they were weak in UPT and helos chose them and not the other way around? I went from a 90kt VFR tactical helo to a CRJ, with a little bug smasher experience, and the speed wasn't an issue. Nor was energy management. I maintain that flying is flying. There is energy management required in gliders, helos, bug smashers, fast jets, airliners, etc. And there are good and bad pilots in all flying communities. I did an observation ride with a relatively new FO at my airline who was a retired AF guy. He was horrible. Horrible SA. Horribly behind the plane, and I thought the mains were going to smash thru the fuselage when he smashed it on. Just flew with a CA a few weeks ago who told me about his previous FO who is an ANG tanker IP. Had been at the airline for a year and had several hundred hours in the plane. Apparently he was almost bad enough to get pro stands involved, behind the jet, had to write out sheets of notes to remember what to do for the few required flows and what to do/who to call when, couldn't land, etc. I've flown with some bad helo dudes as well. But my helo experience certainly made me a better pilot. And required a lot of SA. And stick and rudder and energy management. And crew coordination. Guess we will have to agree to disagree.
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Old 03-26-2017, 08:03 PM
  #12  
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I agree it sucks. But, for the record, as a fix wing guy, I was allowed .2 per flight. In both heavies and fighters you would be in the jet, engine running, taxiing out, arming up, or awaiting a TOT push time, tankers waiting for the fighters to get airborne etc, way more than that, sometimes hours. But .2 is all you get. If we did a mx run and never left the ground, we didn't get any credit for that either. They are trying to make apples to apples for the conversion(military to civilian) for mil because of the way military does the time. But unfortunately they are only doing apples to apples for fixed because most majors are wanting fixed wing time. I personally don't know anyone at my company that got hired with just helo time. Not saying someone isn't here but, their game, their rules.

Don't pay attention to the comments about the quality of the person in the seat. Totally irrelevant to this topic.
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Old 03-27-2017, 02:07 PM
  #13  
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The engine run wouldn't count in anyone's book--not "for the purpose of flight".

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Old 03-28-2017, 07:58 PM
  #14  
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To the OP, I logged exactly what I logged per the 95-1, when I lift off in my helicopter until either 1) crew change (if I get out) or 2) engine shutdown.

So yeah, we get cheated out of a .2-.3 per flight because we don't play the blocks out-blocks in game.

That being said, I've spoken with two airlines that said, as necessary, they have their own "conversion" to recoup that time.

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Old 03-28-2017, 09:47 PM
  #15  
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Originally Posted by tattooguy21 View Post
To the OP, I logged exactly what I logged per the 95-1, when I lift off in my helicopter until either 1) crew change (if I get out) or 2) engine shutdown.

So yeah, we get cheated out of a .2-.3 per flight because we don't play the blocks out-blocks in game.

That being said, I've spoken with two airlines that said, as necessary, they have their own "conversion" to recoup that time.

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For the Army helo dudes, AR 95-1 and the FAA have pretty much the same regs for logging time, so you (we) aren't shortchanged like the AF FW guys are who only log wheels up to wheels down plus a small fixed amount for taxi. AR95-1 for helos uses breaking skids until engine shutdown. FAA is "...when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing." So technically, you can log more liberally in the army if you sit there for 10 or 20 minutes before shutting your engine down. And I knew guys who "used a hobbs meter" and logged engine start to engine shut down in the Army. Army FW time is "takeoff roll to engines off" so they may miss taxi time on the front side. For the wheeled helo types, I've never seen a ground taxi that didn't have some sort of wheels up within the first minute or two as part of the taxi, so I don't think there is that much shortchanging going on in that regard either. Also, the Army's scale (below) for logging decimal time is more liberal than a straight conversion, so there are a few minutes added to your time in that regard as well vs civilian.

1-6 Min = .1
7-12 min = .2
13-18 min = .3
19-24 min = .4
25-30 min = .5
31-36 min = .6
37 -42min = .7
43-48 min = .8
49-54 min = .9
55-60 min = 1.0

The "unfairness" is that civilians usually use a hobbs meter, which is what rental rates go off of, which are usually ticking anytime the engine is on. That doesn't jive with the FAA's definition of logging time, but it is an accepted practice, as is using block time in the airlines, which is (depending on how the ACARS/acft is set up) door close/brake drop until door open. Airline block time is different than loggable flight time per the FAA's definition, but no one cares, and the FAA rest rules, which are predicated on "flight time" use block time for computations. Sometimes I push and have to wait 5-10 minutes before taxi, but by definition I shouldn't start logging time until the aircraft moves under its own power. That never happens.

The bottom line is use what you have logged in the system in which you have it logged. No one cares, and, at least on the army rw side, it's all a wash anyway for the aforementioned reasons. But if there is a discrepancy between your 759 and your logbooks with your own conversion, that will draw attention. On some apps, there is instruction to add a conversion for mil time. But, based on the definitions of logging flight time by the FAA/95-1, I've never done it or needed to do it to change my competitiveness. And it wouldn't have changed anything anyway. If I was a mil FW dude, I maybe would have added a conversion depending on the app and my times.
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Old 03-29-2017, 02:02 AM
  #16  
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Originally Posted by BeatNavy View Post
The bottom line is use what you have logged in the system in which you have it logged. No one cares, and, at least on the army rw side, it's all a wash anyway for the aforementioned reasons. But if there is a discrepancy between your 759 and your logbooks with your own conversion, that will draw attention. On some apps, there is instruction to add a conversion for mil time. But, based on the definitions of logging flight time by the FAA/95-1, I've never done it or needed to do it to change my competitiveness. And it wouldn't have changed anything anyway. If I was a mil FW dude, I maybe would have added a conversion depending on the app and my times.
This is a great post and everything that, frankly, I was too lazy to write. You have what's on your 759 - leave it at that. Anything else will draw attention during an interview. And if that conversion puts you over a required minimum, well, I wouldn't want to have that discussion in a job interview. Similarly, I've talked to guys who 'converted' some of their PI time to PIC due to sole manipulator. I went straight 759 PIC time. Just like TT, I believe this opens a door that you do not want to go near during an interview.
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Old 03-30-2017, 02:59 PM
  #17  
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What the 60av8tor said... Don't open doors if you don't have to. I have also been told that what you get off your 759 keep it in a separate logbook, specifically military times, and then have a different one for FAA/ Interview usage.

Has anyone tried the recent Envoy fixed wing conversion program yet? Those guys that have, willing to shed some light on what they were saying on how to get you to the requisite times? (Genuinely curious here, not going to jump ship from my current place).
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Old 03-30-2017, 05:50 PM
  #18  
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Originally Posted by WingedCelt View Post
What the 60av8tor said... Don't open doors if you don't have to. I have also been told that what you get off your 759 keep it in a separate logbook, specifically military times, and then have a different one for FAA/ Interview usage.

Has anyone tried the recent Envoy fixed wing conversion program yet? Those guys that have, willing to shed some light on what they were saying on how to get you to the requisite times? (Genuinely curious here, not going to jump ship from my current place).
I went to an interview (non-airline flying position) conducted by a retired Army Aviator.
He asked if I had my 759. When I said yes, he passed my resume to another gentleman in the room (neither looked at it) and told me my career highlights more or less, just from reading the 759.

Moral of the story, if they see Army on your resume, be ready to fork over the 759. At this point, there are probably a growing number of hiring folks (non-veterans) who are adept at reading a 759.
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Old 04-01-2017, 10:50 AM
  #19  
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Originally Posted by Hobbit64 View Post
I went to an interview (non-airline flying position) conducted by a retired Army Aviator.
He asked if I had my 759. When I said yes, he passed my resume to another gentleman in the room (neither looked at it) and told me my career highlights more or less, just from reading the 759.

Moral of the story, if they see Army on your resume, be ready to fork over the 759. At this point, there are probably a growing number of hiring folks (non-veterans) who are adept at reading a 759.
Ugh.....that will NOT be an option for me. I have years of jacked up 759s, going all the way back to flight school. Time and time again I requested our flight operations to make the appropriate changes to them, and time and time again I got blown off. As such, the only thing that matches between my logbook and 759 is my total hours.

I'll take my chances with a gorgeous purebred digital logbook and copy of my 7122 matching training and flight events.
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Old 04-01-2017, 11:47 AM
  #20  
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Originally Posted by tattooguy21 View Post
Ugh.....that will NOT be an option for me. I have years of jacked up 759s, going all the way back to flight school. Time and time again I requested our flight operations to make the appropriate changes to them, and time and time again I got blown off. As such, the only thing that matches between my logbook and 759 is my total hours.

I'll take my chances with a gorgeous purebred digital logbook and copy of my 7122 matching training and flight events.
Did you make your own spreadsheet or a commercial one?
I went with Logbook Pro. Lengthy conversion from paper to digital, but extremely valuable when filling out applications or 8710's for CFI renewals.
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