Slice

Tell that to the family of the OH ANG fighter guy that died in Iraq last year. Not to mention the other non-flying types in the NG and ANG.

SaltyDog

I'll give you a quick brief, because the flip side is the "Al Gore" argument to cut Guard/Reserve pay in half when he was in office:

The Nobel Peace prize winner knew that Guard/Reserve folks were paid "twice" when they did two drills a day. He wanted it cut in half to be commensurate to the AC folks. Seems reasonable. Same pay for same duty. Ah, but this would cause a huge line to quit if they enacted this reduced pay, Why?

Here was the explanation, works very close pretty much across the board.
Let's use an 0-4 at 12 years in the Guard/Reserve and their classmate still in the AC.

Base Pay: AC 0-4 is $73,058 annually or $200/day every day of the year +medical and allowances (BAS, housing, etc). How many days worked though? Depends, but using peace time assumption that they get weekends off, actually use 30 days paid leave a year, then the AC person was in not in the squadron for 134 days and at work the other 231 days. So for the actual 'work' the 0-4 is now paid at $316/day+medical and allowances.

Now lets look at the RC/Guard 0-4 classmate: Their pay is $203 per drill. Looks like what the AC person makes daily minus medical and allowances doesn't it. Except, for actual work/duty performed the AC person makes $316 to your $203 as explained. Since we can work for 2 drills in a day, our RC/Guard pay is now $406/day. The cash difference between the two is $90/day. What does the taxpayer think?

The bottom dollar to the tax payer is that the AC classmate costs $316 dollars a day in base pay+around $90 in taxpayer compensation a day for medical +allowances, etc as explained above. They get the same actual 'work' from the RC/Guard classmate because they don't any have to pay extra for leave/medical/housing/etc. Thus, for actual work performed on a general basis, the taxpayer sees costs as nearly identical for actual work. Close enough to justify the pay rates and 2 drills per day or about $400 a day for either a RC or AC on the job. This is also why we only get 1/30 of Flight pay per drill.

shane123

Not to get this thread off topic but can someone in the ANG or Reserves shed a little light on AGR and ART positions....?

All I know about these are that they are full time positions in a typical part time squadron, but are these spots readily available? Or are they once in a blue moon type of deal? Does it vary greatly from unit to unit?

Also....do full time spots typically go to senior guys, junior guys, or a mix?
Once you get an AGR or ART spot how long are you full time status?

Thanks alot everyone, I know its a bunch of questions but any feedback is appreciated.

SaltyDog

Actually, by reg and law, all military personnel are on duty 24/7. Go violate some UCMJ's while acting in your civilian capacity, like a DUI and see if it has any impact on your mil career. Also, USERRA protects and gives Uncle Sam the right to call you 24/7 and deploy you indefinitely, just like the AC.

Or the MO ANG Eagle driver whose airplane fell apart on him, didn't kill him, but risks are risks and he has some enduring medical challenges.

shane123

Good deal, thanks magnum. One more though...

You say AGR guys are Guard....Is this just Guard or does that include Reserve as well? Pardon my ignorance.

dtfl

Not technically. You can be recalled up until you are 60 or 65 I believe. To actually be FREE from the reach of the DOD, you must resign your commission - write the SECDEF.

They recalled guys who had separated from the reserves after 9-11. One guy was retired but in his 50s. I worked (in craphole Djibouti) with a Navy O3 who had been called up to, get this, be the training "guy" for the CRE (Crisis Resp Element) we worked for. The CRE wasnt allowed to go plan and execute missions yet so they had to perform exercises. This O3 had separated 3-4 years prior, and had done a few years in the Navy. He had a 12 month tour to DJ to schedule training events. (One of which resulted in the death of CH53 guys when the BUFF bombed them - not the training guys fault, but evidence that the leadership was pushing too hard to "train" guys waiting to actually go into combat)

As far as BONUS - ARTs may get one also.

BDGERJMN

Funny that, the NAVY has a SELRES bonus for certain designators, aviators being one of them. However, the SELRES bonus only applies to O-3 and below. Assuming you get TACAIR your obligation is 8 years post winging, so unless you've done something illlegal you're an O-4 and not eligible. I'm thinking only the Helo/P-3 folks for the Navy would be eligible if they served their entire ADSO.

dtfl

As a new guy you might get an ART slot...if you complete SUPT, work in the unit on your seasoning tour, and bust your butt, they can get you a "baby ART" slot..which lasts for a year, I believe. Then you have to hope that can be converted into a permanent ART slot.

You NEVER walk into an ART position, unless you are a prior ART at another base and have re-employment rights, get RIFd, or your score is so much higher than others applying that you get the position. As a guy of the street, you will need to be in the unit for a couple years. Many units have revised the ART job descriptions to include full qualification in the AC they fly.

These days, you can make good $ working part time in the unit aka - bumming it - and then apply for the ART job. Now for a personal commentary - before you apply for the ART job - be prepared to be at the Sq for 10 hours a day, but only get 2 hours of work done. That is due to 1) constantly beating your head against a wall known as "the rest of the wing" and 2) after beating your head for a year you throttle back to do the minimum possible.
If you can do that -you can be an ART.

Not that some ARTs dont work their tails off. They do.....then they leave the ART program.

hindsight2020

'2' and you just described my current career plan to a T, kinda scary actually lol.

Ditto on the ART job particulars, they are hard to get, but it's more about timing and your exposure to the unit (which is indeed attained by bumming rather than min running the unit, ESPECIALLY in the beginning) than qualifications. Availability of such billets varies a lot among different units; it's a very airframe-depenent contention IMO. I'd say in this environment getting an ART/AGR is a scarce endeavor and one that could/probably would require some level of financial instability and limitation for an unspecified period of time; I've accepted that opportunity cost for myself at least. Most like to suggest 2 years of bumming but since it's more dependent on 1)availability of new billets and 2) internal squadron movement within the currently existing positions, it could be shorter or longer, therein lies the uncertainity and risk of pursuing and/or holding out for such positions... Dues-paying in the most common sense, just like the airline mentality about step-up jobs.

As to the pitfalls of an ART job, my $.02 is Jesus you guys can have the airlines, I'll take my govt cheese and pay the bills on the 1st without sweating my job and have my version of a commute be walk to my kitchen in the morning. I'd be hard pressed to forego a civil service job of any kind (never mind ART) for a 121 gig in this enviroment. It is true that it's not for everybody. For those of us who like to homestead, hold a check that doesn't bounce every 5 years (furlough), have a shot at a govt pension and happen to have the innate ability to have Wing and SQ office politics roll off our backs like water on a duck (it's a job after all, not personal, works great when you're not trying to make O-6 anyways) while getting to do what we love (fly and get the mission done), civil service is where it's AT.

I know several airline guys at the unit looking into civil service (not even the ART program mind you) positions to get out of 121, and these guys drank the kool-aid and did the rat race to the major cockpit, and discovered the little man behind the curtain at Oz a little less than what they vested themselves into the profession for. I also don't expect to ever go back to buck-fifty gas at the pump, so I figure the airline industry is doomed from a margins of profit POV, then add that our peers will continue to line up 10 years from now to get paid in takeoffs and landings; no thanks brother, my landlady only takes greenbacks and I don't get a discount for the sweet touch and go I got last week. I seriously question the economic wisdom of pursuing the airline industry vis-a-vis a civil service job (and a flying one at that), inefficient bureaucracy jabs accounted for and all...mileage may vary of course. Good luck.

SaltyDog

FYI,
AGR is USERRA protected military service. i,e, reemployment rights at the OTHER job.

ART is NOT protected under USERRA as it is THE job.

It has come up before.