Military Competency to Flight Instructor
11-29-2009, 12:18 PM
#71
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2009
Position: #41
Posts: 283
Huggy, I was just going to ask that very question here in the military section.
I posted the following on a separate thread looking for clarification:
"FWIW...when I took the MCI and received my CFI-AMEL/Instrument, the FSDO inspector I met with gave me a temporary certificate for exactly that, "Flight Instructor: Airplane Mutliengine & Instrument Airplane." Unfortunately, doing a certificate search for my name on faa.gov, my permanent license--once mailed out--will have the CL-Thrust limitation added, making my MEI next to worthless.
I used my instructor experience in the EA-18G (a Superhornet variant) for the civilian conversion and cited examples NATOPS including several WARNINGS regarding limited rudder authority during SE operations in afterburner at high alpha. At some point in the process, the issuing inspector's ruling was overturned, thus adding a CL thrust restriction.
I too would be interested in how the FAA classifies CL thrust. Thanks in advance for any input."
Cubdrick
I posted the following on a separate thread looking for clarification:
"FWIW...when I took the MCI and received my CFI-AMEL/Instrument, the FSDO inspector I met with gave me a temporary certificate for exactly that, "Flight Instructor: Airplane Mutliengine & Instrument Airplane." Unfortunately, doing a certificate search for my name on faa.gov, my permanent license--once mailed out--will have the CL-Thrust limitation added, making my MEI next to worthless.
I used my instructor experience in the EA-18G (a Superhornet variant) for the civilian conversion and cited examples NATOPS including several WARNINGS regarding limited rudder authority during SE operations in afterburner at high alpha. At some point in the process, the issuing inspector's ruling was overturned, thus adding a CL thrust restriction.
I too would be interested in how the FAA classifies CL thrust. Thanks in advance for any input."
Cubdrick
11-29-2009, 04:00 PM
#74
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2008
Position: UnemploymentJet
Posts: 314
Originally Posted by HuggyU2
Be advised that the FSDO's are starting to put a "centerline thrust only" restriction on these new flight instructor certificates. Kind of odd, but it is the new guidance from D.C.
11-29-2009, 05:42 PM
#75
Get me outta here...
Joined APC: Oct 2008
Position: Boeing right seat
Posts: 1,541
Originally Posted by nfnsquared
You mean only for twin-engine fighter type instructors? Surely not for 4-8 engine wide body military instructors?
As for Vagabond's thread, I need to find the actual document.
11-29-2009, 11:05 PM
#76
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: FAA 'Flight Check'
Posts: 13,837
Originally Posted by HuggyU2
Correct. If you instructed in non-CL thrust aircraft, you won't get the restriction.
As for Vagabond's thread, I need to find the actual document.
As for Vagabond's thread, I need to find the actual document.
Huggy -
I meant that someone posted the document in Vagabond's thread.
USMCFLYR
11-30-2009, 05:16 AM
#77
Moderate Moderator
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: Curator at Static Display
Posts: 5,681
The List
From Vagabond's Thread:
E.Limited-to-Center Thrust Limitation.
1) The military aircraft listed below have no VMC established by the manufacturer. Other military multiengine airplanes may exist now or in the future for which there is no published data on VMC. Military pilots who can only show qualification in those kinds of multiengine airplanes may only be issued a multiengine airplane rating with the limitation “Limited-to-Center Thrust.”
a) T-2B/C Rockwell Buckeye.
b) T-37 Cessna 318.
c) T-38 Northrop Talon.
d) F-4 McDonnell-Douglas Phantom.
e) F-111 General Dynamics F-111.
f) F-18 Northrop-McDonnell-Douglas Hornet.
g) A-6E Grumman American Intruder.
h) A-10 Fairchild Republic Thunderbolt II.
i) F-15 McDonnell-Douglas Eagle.
j) F-14 Grumman F-14.
k) F-117 Lockheed Stealth.
l) F-22 Boeing/McDonnell F-22.
2) The “Limited‑to‑Center Thrust” limitation is not placed on a pilot certificate when the airplane has a VMC published on the airplane’s type certificate data sheet or approved flight manual.
Not perfect..it said "A6-E" which I changed to A-6E, and it was built by Grumman...not Grumman American (Grumman American built Tigers and Cheetahs). But it is what the FAA is using for the restriction.
E.Limited-to-Center Thrust Limitation.
1) The military aircraft listed below have no VMC established by the manufacturer. Other military multiengine airplanes may exist now or in the future for which there is no published data on VMC. Military pilots who can only show qualification in those kinds of multiengine airplanes may only be issued a multiengine airplane rating with the limitation “Limited-to-Center Thrust.”
a) T-2B/C Rockwell Buckeye.
b) T-37 Cessna 318.
c) T-38 Northrop Talon.
d) F-4 McDonnell-Douglas Phantom.
e) F-111 General Dynamics F-111.
f) F-18 Northrop-McDonnell-Douglas Hornet.
g) A-6E Grumman American Intruder.
h) A-10 Fairchild Republic Thunderbolt II.
i) F-15 McDonnell-Douglas Eagle.
j) F-14 Grumman F-14.
k) F-117 Lockheed Stealth.
l) F-22 Boeing/McDonnell F-22.
2) The “Limited‑to‑Center Thrust” limitation is not placed on a pilot certificate when the airplane has a VMC published on the airplane’s type certificate data sheet or approved flight manual.
Not perfect..it said "A6-E" which I changed to A-6E, and it was built by Grumman...not Grumman American (Grumman American built Tigers and Cheetahs). But it is what the FAA is using for the restriction.
11-30-2009, 07:43 AM
#78
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,377
Originally Posted by hindsight2020
Negative. FAA considers flight instruction as OUTSIDE the scope of commercial pilot duty. Even acting as PIC while instructing, instruction is not considered under the perview of commercial compensation, therefore only a third class medical would be required to act as PIC. Thence why I can charge a fee for primary instruction (PIC implied) and not have a second class medical. In other words, I do not need a second class medical to conduct flight instruction for compensation. Any other activity for compensation, yes I would need a commercial certificate and the appropriate medical class to be able to excercise the priviledge of a commercial certificate. It is a flight instructor specific priviledge.
The FAR legal precedent for this is that a student pilot is NOT considered a passenger, therefore the duties that involve " the carriage of property and/or passengers for hire" is NOT excercised. As such, no commercial priviledges excercised (getting compensated alone is not a commercial-qualifying criteria, like most people incorrectly infer) therefore no second class required. Plenty of FAA Q&A documentation on this subject available from the FAA if you want word from the horse.
Happy flying.
The FAR legal precedent for this is that a student pilot is NOT considered a passenger, therefore the duties that involve " the carriage of property and/or passengers for hire" is NOT excercised. As such, no commercial priviledges excercised (getting compensated alone is not a commercial-qualifying criteria, like most people incorrectly infer) therefore no second class required. Plenty of FAA Q&A documentation on this subject available from the FAA if you want word from the horse.
Happy flying.
Correct, this is a common point of confusion because many flight schools require their instructors to hold a 2C so they can reposition airplanes.
You can instruct all day with a 3C or even no medical, but if you are on the clock and move an empty airplane you fall into commercial flying. Taxiing the airplane does not count, as long as there is no intent to fly.
11-30-2009, 07:47 AM
#79
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,377
Originally Posted by Cubdrick
Unfortunately, doing a certificate search for my name on faa.gov, my permanent license--once mailed out--will have the CL-Thrust limitation added, making my MEI next to worthless.
There is a provision in the Commercial ME PTS to remove a CL restriction by demonstrating the SE maneuvers and engine cuts. Should take about one hour in the air.
The CFI ME PTS that I have (old) does not seem to have this provision, but I'm sure the same process would apply. Check with your local FSDO on that.
You technically need to do this process twice...once to demonstrate the skills for your commercial cert (if it has the CL restriction too), and then again to demonstrate that you can teach the skills. For CFI checkrides, most examiners have you demonstrate the maneuvers while explaining them so I'm guessing you could arrange to fix both certificates on one checkride since you could perform and teach the maneuvers at the same time. But it would be up to the DPE.
12-20-2009, 10:34 PM
#80
New Hire
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Cessna 172 Left
Posts: 8
My dad asked me the question on the Centerline Thrust Limitation the other day. I guess he wants to know before he heads down to the FSDO for his military IP to FAA CFI conversion.
He holds a no-restriction Commercial AMEL because he flew OV-10s in the Air Force but only taught in the T-37, which is on the list mentioned above. Will this limit his MEI to Centerline Thrust only or because his pilot certificate is unrestricted will it be issued without restrictions?
Thanks for the help!
He holds a no-restriction Commercial AMEL because he flew OV-10s in the Air Force but only taught in the T-37, which is on the list mentioned above. Will this limit his MEI to Centerline Thrust only or because his pilot certificate is unrestricted will it be issued without restrictions?
Thanks for the help!
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