LowSlowT2

If you're using the "...demo maneuvers & my techniques" to justify IP time, how can the other guy log primary? He's not at the controls, he's not a student, he's not non-current, and if you log the events you are "instructing", there should probably be some secondary time in this scenario. A more accurate way to capture what is actually occurring, if you insist on logging IP time for demo-ing something to a current/qualified pilot, is the other guy logs secondary.

I know this situation doesn't exist in the white-jet world, but two qualified MP/FP could go out and demo their techniques and maneuvers to each other and an IP is not required because no formal instruction is occurring. So, to sit and observe/instruct w/o being at the controls to "talk the other guy through your techniques and maneuvers" to justify instructing is also hard to defend in my opinion.

If you're both fully qualified IPs and current in the maneuvers that are being flown, I'm not certain how you're logging instructor time...ethically, but we beat this horse in the other thread and I realize I'm probably a minority of one.

flyn2001

Too confusing for me...i'm just a pilot! We don't log Secondary in the T-6. My SARMS heads would explode all over our step desk if I tried. If I fly a sortie with a DV/ROTC/FAM/ORT/etc...I'm an MP and log Primary (100% PIC).

Been this way since before my time! Until the Mil goes to PIC/SIC or the FAA goes to Pri/Sec/Other, I'll stick to the norm of what my MDS community does...my FHR has all the info I need. We fly WAY more student sorties in the T-6 than CT sorties anyway.

What about heavy guys (IP) logging all IP time when on a local sortie with some ACs/FPs/CPs doing AR/LL's etc? When I was a qualified C-17 AC, I would split the Pri/Sec/Other w/ all the other qualified dudes, while the IP logged all IP time?

Adlerdriver

You guys are trying to use USAF terms, rules and attitudes to solve a dilemma created by specific airlines.

The simple fact is that most airlines have the philosophy that there can only be one PIC during a flight - the one who signed for the aircraft. That's the way it is on their aircraft and that's the way they made their rules for applicants.

You can try to explain how the guy in the front seat is logging Primary time while the guy "demo-ing" the cuban-8 from the back seat logs IP time but they're not going to buy it. If you show up thumping your chest about what a valuable "resource" you are and tell them some of your PIC time was logged with an IP on your aircraft showing you his techniques, my guess is they'll show you the door.

But, I've been wrong before.

Hacker15e

I've heard that from a number of heavy dudes I know.

In the pointy-nosed community, if you weren't writing a gradesheet after the sortie, you weren't logging IP time. Even to the point where, as an IFF or SUPT "direct support" flight lead (ergo, your wingman is the only student in the formation, and you're giving the brief, in-flight critiques over the radio, and the debrief), you couldn't even log IP time.

Definitely some notable differences between communities.

BUT, for the purposes of this discussion, we get back to the same point that was made in the other recent thread and several others like it: there are differences between FAA logging, USAF logging, and what the airlines want to see. EDUCATE YOURSELF to know the differences, and ensure that when it's time to get your ATP or apply to the airlines, you apply those differences to your USAF times appropriately.

USMCFLYR

Who would write the grade sheet then?
I'm glad I didn't have to go through this, though I would have if I had applied somewhere it made a difference. I just lumped all that time together in the FRS. It would have been very painful to try and go back and separate that time after years. The heavy world sounds very complicated when it comes to logging times. There are some older threads that first hashed this out if anyone is interested in searching and reading.

USMCFLYR

thecloser2144

Damn, didn't know I would spark such a discussion. I usually log all IP time in the tanker when I can and the rest will be either Secondary or other if we are doing a long overseas sortie. I'll probably include all my IP time in my APP as PIC and then 80 percent of my Primary as PIC time as well to be conservative.

Also, speaking of logging time, we don't include the taxi times like the airlines do, so you could also pad the numbers or some airlines account for this in their app process.

LowSlowT2

But you could - that's one of the reasons it exists. In the C130 world, a navigator could log secondary if the instructor leaves him in the seat and demos something from standing up. Instructor still logs IN time, the student logs secondary time, and the instructor is able to log the training event.

Ahh, I love the military! We do dumb things in my community too...because that's how we've always done them. The bane of the military is institutional inertia and that it favors conformity over uniqueness. Doesn't make anything right.

No doubt CT is a small portion of your overall total. Probably a good discussion at the PAD meetings if you want to get booed out of the room.

Heavy time can be messy, and it's just as wrong there too if misused. I've been put on a sortie simply to baby-sit a young crew, and the CC/DO intent is for me to instruct them even though they are current. So, as I said before, there are times it is appropriate. I can instruct standing up and have two guys in the seats and not have the A-code. If anything goes wrong, I hang first, so I have the defacto A-code. Is that PIC time? (rhetorical question)

As for just logging IP time when everyone is current and I wasn't put on specifically to babysit, well, I'm not saying I've never done it, but more often than not, it's to make the 781 easier (that also doesn't make it right) at 0300 after a 6.5 training sortie. It's messy. Very messy.

When I was in AETC, granted at the FTU, not UPT, the very rare CT was logged as MP pri/sec unless we were conducting sim-EPs or one of us was non-current for something.


As far as converting military time into civilian time for airline applications purposes, my approach has been to take TOTAL - OTHER - Co-pilot and then multiply all remaining time by something like 70% based on the MDS I was in at the time. It is easy to explain the various percentages I use per MDS and they are all conservative. I have not used any of the .2/.3 per sortie additions because, so far, I have more than enough time for anyone I've wanted to apply to.

130drvr

80 or 90% is a good rule. As for taxi time, you can either use a conversion factor or, if you meet the mins, only add it if the airline tells you too, it is typically not a huge amount, unless you need it to get over a hiring mins hurdle.

I would recommend translating your military products into a civilian logbook, painful yes, but well worth the time.

Marvin

I (C-141/C-5 guy) did a percentage of my time after AC upgrade as PIC. If you were a heavy guy, you probably weren't signing for the airplane until after you upgraded. (Not directing this at 130drvr, more for others reading this thread).

As for taxi time, I based it upon each airline's preference. If they allow you to add 0.3 per sortie, that's what I did for them.

How I handled it was, I set up a single sheet with all my hours, broken down as needed for civilian apps. Then, for each airline I interviewed with (both, that is) I had a specific explanation written down and in my possession on interview day for every single number I reported to them. I did not want to be in a position of having to reply "ummmm ..." if they asked how I came up with my XXX numbers.

Adlerdriver

Please do not do this. It's a waste of time.

Your military flight records and a cover sheet with an explanation of how you calculated and adjusted your times is more than adequate.

If you "civilianize" your military times with taxi time and re-interpret your PIC time, there is no guarantee that your log book will provide exactly what airline X needs on their application. They may have a different taxi adjustment or not want it at all. You'll still have to make adjustments and explain your times with each airline. A log book isn't going to remove the requirement to bring your mil flight records to the interview. Now you'll just have something else to muddy the waters further.

If guys were getting turned away with their mil records and a cover sheet, then this advice might make sense. But, they're not.