thecloser2144

I was just wondering if anyone has any experience with this. I have around 3000 TT with 1600 PIC and 1000 instructor. If I apply at an airline, say Atlas, i'm afraid that when I show up they won't be able to read my ARMS printout.

Also, i'm afraid that if they call to verify (which I don't care) that the person that answers may tell them something that would question my hours total...make sense? I mean, I will pad my numbers to the downside and I qualify for most airlines to apply, but I don't want to show up to the interview or training and then get kicked to the curb for a dumb reason.

Any thoughts?...do they actually verify the hours and go over it that much?

Thanks.

zach141

Reasonable man theory (not personal experience)--to any major flying outfit, you (a military pilot) are a known commodity. As long as the records you bring match more or less what is on your application, they can figure out your times just fine.
Best wishes.

Adlerdriver

I would recommend including a cover sheet with your ARMS report. Keep it non-pilot friendly and succinct. Provide details on how you computed all your totals and any per sortie additives for mil to civ conversion. Being conservative is a good plan.

I was hired at 3 airlines and used this technique with them all. They did not spend more than a few minutes looking over my log books/ARMS report in my presence. They may have made copies to verify after the interview but I can't say for sure. I would plan as if they will verify everything you tell them and make sure you can back all your data with reasonable methods and factual information.

Keep in mind that your computations may be different from airline to airline. Some airlines clearly state that they don't want any student time in the PIC total. Many others state they want PIC time just from the sorties where you signed for the aircraft. Some (myself included) interpret this to mean that they don't want solo student time since you don't have a license/wings and you're technically soloing under your IP's ticket. Another problem area is time you spent as the A/C with an IP on board the aircraft. You're legal to log this as PIC time with the FAA (and the USAF) but under airline XYZ's rules, you probably have to remove those missions from your PIC total. The IP was ultimately responsible for the aircraft whether your actually signed the forms or not.

There have been several threads about mil conversions and computing PIC time - you may want to do a search (you may need more posts to be able to do the search).
Good Luck

crewdawg

Say wha? So you're saying I can't log PIC any time I had the self loading cargo in the back seat (who happens to be an IP)? Dudes just sitting back there catching some Z's, drooling all over himself...

Adlerdriver

You sound like a fighter guy. I'm more comfortable offering specific opinions on logging fighter time. I was responding to the OP who appears to be a tanker guy with some general advice.

Responding to your more specific question:
It's not my call and it doesn't have to pass the common sense test. An airline can choose whatever criteria they want for PIC time. You have to be able to honestly answer whatever questions they might have about the time you logged and how you categorized it relative to their rules. For the small number of sorties in most pilot's careers that might fall into these gray areas, I would tend to err to the side of caution. Then you don't have to worry about integrity questions on your flight times - that probably tends to make an otherwise solid interview extremely unpleasant.

You can apply a little common sense to the realities of Aforms or ARMS or whatever they're called these days. Unless things have changes, there's no real documentation depicting the presence of an IP on a D-model CT sortie. You may have been flying that tub around empty as far as the official records are concerned. So, unless you keep a log book with details of who was in your pit on specific sorties then you can do whatever your integrity can handle. However, it's not like we're probably talking about a significant number of sorties - so why risk it.

There are plenty of former fighter pilots involved in the hiring process at their airlines. If I was looking at an F-15 pilot's application to my airline and I see that he has logged every hour of D-model time he's flown as PIC, then we're going to have a problem and I'm probably going to dig a little harder. We all know there are a small number of sorties in FTU that require an IP. As a former FTU IP myself, I know most two-seaters are in demand for syllabus sorties that require them. So, chances are, most or all of a pilot's D-model time during FTU is dual received with an IP on board. Many bases (especially overseas) send a new guy up in a tub for his first ride in theater. If a guy had a long layoff (reflected by a gap in his sortie dates in ARMS), he's going to need to regain landing currency with an IP. So, the bottom line is that you never know who is going to be looking at your times and what level of "SA" they're going to have about your former life. If you had an IP on your aircraft (drooling or not) and that fact can be documented or indirectly substantiated with other information, then it's probably best to leave those times off your PIC total.

As a side not: Perhaps it's an old school kind of philosophy but if an IP in my squadron is "drooling" in the back seat and just using up LOX, then he shouldn't be an IP. If the front-seater isn't asking for feedback in the debrief (as he should), I would expect that IP to offer instruction, when appropriate, on every sortie in which he participates.

CAFB 04-12

This is the reason I keep a column for time spent as the A-coded pilot. This is the closest thing I think we have to civilian PIC.

xjtguy

Disclaimer, you mentioned Atlas specifically, so this is specific to them. This info is current as of this year when I interviewed early this year, and everybody that did after me;

Ok man, listen up, cause this is gonna blow your mind. When you apply to Atlas, you send them a resume, AS WELL AS THE PAQ FORM. The PAQ from is a "big picture" of your flight times, not a specific break down.

After you do the phone screen, after you bang out the 100 question technical assessment, you will be emailed an application. The application has a flight time grid to fill out. Don't worry, it's only slightly more specific than your PAQ from and easy to fill out. Now, this is where it get's really really really good, below is a direct quote from the email invite/directions;



The HR people at Atlas know what they are doing. There's PLENTY of mil guys working in that building down there. They know what a mil guy has and brings to the table. They hire ALL SORTS of backgrounds. The ALSO shoot down ALL SORTS of backgrounds. Of the 4 military in my group, NOT a single one got it.

Sure, you may want to bring your mil record/ARMS forms if you go to Miami, no problemo. But keep in mind, NOT a single person is gonna ask to see them and it'll just take up space in your brief case. Other companies, sure, you bet. They're gonna want to see you mil records and. etc. But again, you asked about Atlas, so that's what my post was tailored to.

Again, that's all as of early this year, if anybody has more current info, please feel free to step in and correct my mistakes.

asupilot

That's exactly what I do, in addition to keeping the FA and 781 for each time I had the A-Code. It makes the PIC calculation easy. And yes, I will have the stack with me at the interview should the question arise. And no, I don't think I'll be asked too much about it.

thecloser2144

Thanks for the info. I was going to specifically include a breakdown of my calculations and be conservative and include a breakout on my coversheat. Its not easy for the Tanker when they (ARMS) lump everything into PIC time when you upgrade, however being an IP I'll be able to break out my times. I would also take an ARMS printout to the interview in case they asked but I'm not too worried about it.

Thanks for the inputs.

flyn2001

I could probably spend the next year trying to break down my times 30 different ways....this is the USAF and you/we are instructors/evaluators in multi-million dollar jets!

IP time is IP time...my FHR says I have 1,000 IP hours...no wierd conversions needed. That's PIC!

EP time...same

Pri/Sec/Other time (heavy world 3-way split situations)...depends on the airline it seems. In the T-6 I used what other airline dudes in my sqdn said they used...90% of Pri for PIC (assumes other 10% was PIT/MQT/CT.

I sign for the jet 100% of the time as the Chief FE in my sqdn (CC/DO not included). Today, if I fly CT w/ another IP, we will split IP and Pri time....because I will instruct and demo maneuvers and my techniques. I will log 100% PIC though....cause I'm responsible for that aircraft and the pink bodies inside it!

Why do we all get so wacky over this stuff? "Military Evaluator/Instructor Pilot" + a good attitude = extremely valuable resource.