Go Back  Airline Pilot Central Forums > Career Builder > Military
FY13 Aviation Continuation Pay for Pilots >

FY13 Aviation Continuation Pay for Pilots

Notices
Military Military Aviation

FY13 Aviation Continuation Pay for Pilots

Old 05-21-2013, 09:42 PM
  #1  
Line Holder
Thread Starter
 
Flyer5's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Jan 2011
Posts: 52
Default FY13 Aviation Continuation Pay for Pilots

Anyone heard any rumors/news about a release date for the FY13 Aviation Continuation Pay (Bonus) for Active Duty, Reserves, or ANG? Any rumors about $ amount? Way late this year. Hope it's not affecting decision making for those eligible to separate.
Flyer5 is offline  
Old 05-22-2013, 04:23 AM
  #2  
Gets Weekends Off
 
LowSlowT2's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Aug 2011
Posts: 484
Default

Originally Posted by Flyer5 View Post
Anyone heard any rumors/news about a release date for the FY13 Aviation Continuation Pay (Bonus) for Active Duty, Reserves, or ANG? Any rumors about $ amount? Way late this year. Hope it's not affecting decision making for those eligible to separate.
I retired last year, but my money is on sequestration. There is an internal political price to pay with the pilot bonus and it's a tougher one to pay during tough budget times. Can you imagine the AF Times headline: Base gyms close as pilots get bonuses.

Traditionally, the bonus doesn't affect many folks' decision. Those who are getting out are getting out - no amount of money is going to change their minds. Those who are going to stay, stay regardless of the money - it's just gravy. There is some gray in the middle, but largely, these are small numbers in the overall grand scheme of things.

During the hiring booms of the late '90s, no amount of money could keep most folks in...but it sure was nice for those of us who stayed in.
LowSlowT2 is offline  
Old 05-22-2013, 11:10 AM
  #3  
Gets Weekends Off
 
hindsight2020's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Center seat, doing loops to music
Posts: 820
Default

Originally Posted by LowSlowT2 View Post
I retired last year, but my money is on sequestration. There is an internal political price to pay with the pilot bonus and it's a tougher one to pay during tough budget times. Can you imagine the AF Times headline: Base gyms close as pilots get bonuses.

Traditionally, the bonus doesn't affect many folks' decision. Those who are getting out are getting out - no amount of money is going to change their minds. Those who are going to stay, stay regardless of the money - it's just gravy. There is some gray in the middle, but largely, these are small numbers in the overall grand scheme of things.

During the hiring booms of the late '90s, no amount of money could keep most folks in...but it sure was nice for those of us who stayed in.
Then why not get rid of the cotton-pickin' thing in the first place? If it is so inconsequential to the outcome, and I do agree with you that it doesn't keep people from making the decision to punch or not, what is the AF's perception of the purpose of this bonus??

I can only surmise that the ability to lock people out from exercising 7-day options while still vulnerable to RIF would be the only remaining reason. And even then, people do that anyways by agreeing to a PCS/training commitment that puts them to 15+ years. You don't need a bonus for that.

As to the people for whom 18K post tax is a make or break situation to their household cashflow as O-4 income earners, sweet Jesus they need a Dave Ramsey webinar, not an ACP. Maybe a divorce lawyer.

I just don't get the whole ACP angst. Maybe it's a function of a vocal minority on the internet. Maybe most folks offline really don't have it in their radar scope of priorities...
hindsight2020 is offline  
Old 05-22-2013, 02:04 PM
  #4  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Joined APC: Mar 2007
Position: Petting Zoo
Posts: 2,062
Default

Originally Posted by hindsight2020 View Post
As to the people for whom 18K post tax is a make or break situation to their household cashflow as O-4 income earners, sweet Jesus they need a Dave Ramsey webinar, not an ACP. Maybe a divorce lawyer.

I just don't get the whole ACP angst. Maybe it's a function of a vocal minority on the internet. Maybe most folks offline really don't have it in their radar scope of priorities...
Geez man, he just asked if any one had news. From my point of view, I didn't need the money to make ends meet, but it was a hell of a nice extra chunk of change. Hopefully compounded 18 years it's going to help my kids go to college.

I was staying in either way, doesn't mean I wasn't more than happy to get it.
Sputnik is offline  
Old 05-22-2013, 03:53 PM
  #5  
Gets Weekends Off
 
CAFB 04-12's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: Various
Posts: 428
Default

Originally Posted by hindsight2020 View Post
I can only surmise that the ability to lock people out from exercising 7-day options while still vulnerable to RIF would be the only remaining reason.
Winner winner, chicken dinner.
CAFB 04-12 is offline  
Old 05-22-2013, 05:18 PM
  #6  
Gets Weekends Off
 
BDGERJMN's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: Walmart Greeter
Posts: 694
Default

Originally Posted by hindsight2020 View Post
Then why not get rid of the cotton-pickin' thing in the first place? If it is so inconsequential to the outcome, and I do agree with you that it doesn't keep people from making the decision to punch or not, what is the AF's perception of the purpose of this bonus??

I can only surmise that the ability to lock people out from exercising 7-day options while still vulnerable to RIF would be the only remaining reason. And even then, people do that anyways by agreeing to a PCS/training commitment that puts them to 15+ years. You don't need a bonus for that.

As to the people for whom 18K post tax is a make or break situation to their household cashflow as O-4 income earners, sweet Jesus they need a Dave Ramsey webinar, not an ACP. Maybe a divorce lawyer.

I just don't get the whole ACP angst. Maybe it's a function of a vocal minority on the internet. Maybe most folks offline really don't have it in their radar scope of priorities...
Anyone who thinks that ACCP is a retention tool to include FO/GO Leadership who see it pasted as bullets on some end strength slide for the aviation community is flat out mistaken.

Hindsight, you're right. The point of ACCP isn't retention as you alluded to in your summary that folks just don't care about the money in making a decision to get out or not. That said I can tell you flat out that when in the ready room and folks are asked if they opted in or out of DH the first thing out of their collective mouth's if yes is "I took the Devil's money".

So why keep giving it out if its not about retention? I think it is a very useful tool in rewarding those that do stay in for arguably the hardest part of their career in a squadron, that of a operational Department Head in a Navy/Marine Corps squadron or DO in the Air Force with the highest OPTEMPO whether stateside or deployed. ACIP coupled with ACCP isn't a bad 'plus up' for those that agree to stay on for another 5 yrs.

For me when I got out in 2008(great economic time to leave active duty) and decided I'd had enough and transitioned to the reserves/civilian sector, the $$ had zero to do with my decision. It was about quality of life. . Each case is different, but I can tell you that had I stayed in the extra money might have made the quality of life when I was home, a bit better, I don't know.

I think if ACCP truly was a retention tool the services would advocate for the law to be changed to give them the flexibility to turn it off/on as a function of retention. They currently don't have that flexibility without huge budgetary line item battles.
BDGERJMN is offline  
Old 05-22-2013, 05:29 PM
  #7  
Gets Weekends Off
 
LowSlowT2's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Aug 2011
Posts: 484
Default

Several points to make, not all of them germane or pertinent. Forgive my rambling...

I've heard many reasons from senior leadership over the years:
A - XX% take the bonus, so it must work
(this does not mean that there are those on the fence who may be influenced by the money, but I have to believe this is a small percentage overall)
B - It's really meant not as an incentive to stay, necessarily, but rather a reward for staying.
(The logic here is that there are other career field bonuses (medical and legal spring to mind immediately) to compensate folks for some portion of what they would receive in a civilian equivalent position
C - It is to reduce the flexibility of the fliers
(This speaks to those who are talking about the 7-day opt out)

Let's face it, AF Manpower is reactionary and not proactive. They are just dealing with the whip end of the tail. Manpower folks talk of red line/blue line and bathtubs and think these programs have significant impact.

Truthfully, in addition to what I said earlier about those who stay are going to stay anyway and those who punch are going to punch anyway, I think the economy and outside hiring have far more influence on folks' decisions than the total dollar figure of any bonus...

All that said. I do like what the RAF does with Specialist Aircrew. A bonus system rigged around something like what they've got would've been nice. Without getting into details of their system (because we don't have it an likely never will, so why bother), suffice to say their retention seems to be as good as ours when it needs to be and as bad as ours when the majors are hiring...
LowSlowT2 is offline  
Old 05-23-2013, 02:39 AM
  #8  
Line Holder
 
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 35
Default

If I had a 20K per year bonus as most 0-4/0-5s have in the MC, then I would definitely stay in. With little/no bonus, then the decision is a little harder. This is the true for most of my friends too (senior 0-3/0-4 select).
tennfly2 is offline  
Old 05-23-2013, 04:46 AM
  #9  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Hilltopper89's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Oct 2012
Position: 737
Posts: 1,061
Default

I took the bonus a long time ago and it would likely not have changed my decision to stay til 20. That said, it would have been nice to have an option to bail at any time if I had wanted to. ACP prevents this and makes you a slave for 5 more years, and most typically for 8-10 because nobody ejects after the 15-17 year point.

I think the real story is pilot retention, especially in the 11Fs. The man has to know that morale is at an all-time low and that they need to fix the system to keep folks around. When I retired a couple months ago I'd say at least half if not more of the 11Fs in my unit were considering getting out. They're just waiting for an interview and a job offer. It got bad enough that our commander got angry when he overheard all the airline talk at work and had words with a buddy who had study materials on his desk.

But based on my contacts at ACC and the like they won't figure it out. I would not be surprised to see stop loss on 11Fs in the future because they aren't addressing it now and won't until it's too late.

On topic, I think pilot morale needs to be addressed and withdrawing ACP will only make matters worse and give guys at the 11-14 point the option to punch if UAL/DL/AL/Jet Blue/Alaska, etc. come calling. Failing to continue ACP is a failure for this reason alone.
Hilltopper89 is offline  
Old 05-23-2013, 04:51 AM
  #10  
Gets Weekends Off
 
Hilltopper89's Avatar
 
Joined APC: Oct 2012
Position: 737
Posts: 1,061
Default

Originally Posted by LowSlowT2 View Post
Several points to make, not all of them germane or pertinent. Forgive my rambling...

I've heard many reasons from senior leadership over the years:
A - XX% take the bonus, so it must work
(this does not mean that there are those on the fence who may be influenced by the money, but I have to believe this is a small percentage overall)
B - It's really meant not as an incentive to stay, necessarily, but rather a reward for staying.
(The logic here is that there are other career field bonuses (medical and legal spring to mind immediately) to compensate folks for some portion of what they would receive in a civilian equivalent position
C - It is to reduce the flexibility of the fliers
(This speaks to those who are talking about the 7-day opt out)

Let's face it, AF Manpower is reactionary and not proactive. They are just dealing with the whip end of the tail. Manpower folks talk of red line/blue line and bathtubs and think these programs have significant impact.

Truthfully, in addition to what I said earlier about those who stay are going to stay anyway and those who punch are going to punch anyway, I think the economy and outside hiring have far more influence on folks' decisions than the total dollar figure of any bonus...

All that said. I do like what the RAF does with Specialist Aircrew. A bonus system rigged around something like what they've got would've been nice. Without getting into details of their system (because we don't have it an likely never will, so why bother), suffice to say their retention seems to be as good as ours when it needs to be and as bad as ours when the majors are hiring...
I somewhat agree. The only reason this works as a retention tool is that it locks folks in to 5 more years of AD with no say in their careers. You could say it is a "reward" for staying but the underlying motivation isn't to be Santa Claus but to keep guys around to fill crappy jobs at the O4 level when opportunities outside might be more appealing.
Hilltopper89 is offline  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
P-3Bubba
Major
174
04-23-2014 07:14 AM
captain_drew
Flight Schools and Training
38
12-05-2012 09:29 AM
mjarosz
Regional
47
06-24-2009 07:33 AM
aileronjam
Hiring News
17
11-11-2008 10:27 PM
2 BLUE
JetBlue
47
09-12-2005 12:25 PM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Your Privacy Choices