I know the military just legalized bestiality (Senate Approves Bill that Legalizes Sodomy and Bestiality in U.S. Military | CNS News), but I'm trying not to take your bolded statement above literally (I thought dodos were extinct anyway!). I would say, biblically, being "deep in the dodo" would be a sin (sorry man, it was just too funny to pass up!).

Seriously though, I agree with you about man's hypocrisy--we're all hypocrites. I'm not sure what "sins" you're looking for though. PM me and I'll try to help you out.

 

I believe the problem is not caring. Isn't that how tyranny slips in? For this we are paying a price of the hippie revolution of the 60s. Like I had said in another post, the pendulum has begun to swing back to the right as rational people are sick and tired of PC, and tolerance being preached from one side only.

 

To be tolerant is often not a virtue. People of all stripes need to understand that tolerance of wrongdoing is... well, wrong.

 

But Eastern--who gets to set this bar? There have been countless thought experiments set up by philosophers from all times which can show that nearly anything can rationalized or justified depending on the circumstances--the idea of "Absolute Morality" has been brought up and debated since Greek times--with no clear winner of the debate. Our culture has set social norms for conduct and morality the we GENERALLY all agree on..Murder, Pedophilia, and Rape are all heinous and wrong--And for the majority of these crimes the punishment we have created to deal with it are the harshest in our society. My problem is that once you get past the BIG OBVIOUS parts of our social norms and notions of wrongdoing--you fall into a murky grey soup where the social norms break down into individual beliefs that may or may not be immoral to people. The only solution I see to managing this is to make nearly everything legal (unless it is going to explicitly harm someone else)--then choose to participate, or not, based on your own individual code--and have the freedom of speech and expression to stand in the door and scream at the top of your lungs how wrong you think this behavior is..."I may disagree with what you say, but I will fight to the death for your right to say it" Just a similar notion with behavior..

 

So how are you going to decide what is explicitly harmful to other people and what is not? Who are we trying to protect by enforcing rules on society? The innocent (non-participants) or the violators (participants) of these norms? Is it ok for a 16 yr old to have sex with whomever they want? (A pedophile for instance) Is it ok for a young Parent to get high on crack while their 2yr old is in the next room? Who is getting hurt here and who do the current laws protect? Do you think one persons actions (or a group of people) have no impact on a society as a whole?

Your do what you like philosophy is just as grey as the current norm you oppose. Without a moral norm established by a society there would be chaos. Those norms change for better or worse throughout history and will continue to be part of civilization. In my opinion people should argue for social norms based on the true benefits or detriments to a society and leave the "I'm better than you" crap out of it. And forget about trying to get everyone to agree with each other on everything. Someone is always going to feel offended.

 

Flys, I know what I am saying is not perfect--I agree it is as grey as the current norms, and I generally agree with your last statement. Yes, everyone is going to be offended--and no there is no constitutional protection against being offended...Where I think we go wrong is overlegislation on both sides--The left and the right both have a vision of the country, both think that it is the proper "social norms based on the true benefits or detriments to a society", and do their best to pass the laws that bring about their vision--I think that a lot of the time, those laws just flat don;t need to be passed...The government doesn;t "nothing" enough stuff--it passes laws about everything--to appease the minority or the majority...unfortunately-- I think everyone in this country is negatively affected by this...

 

Maybe people just need to grow some thicker skin and not get all bent out of shape if someone else doesn't believe in their beliefs. Everyone has an opinion, and not everyone will agree. Once again, why does the minority always get treated with kid gloves and the majority is trampled on. You should walk around any military squadron these days, we're PC'd to death. One day soon, I doubt we'll even be able to have a beer in the squadron they've already come after the Maxim type magazines or any suggestive type material. The crazy part of that, most the women military pilots I know are worse than guys when it comes to that stuff. Once again, one person gets all upset and the rest suffer.

 

I believe self determination is a concept of the past. Imagine if you were able to "make it in this world" without some government/social entity attempting to dip into your pocket. Where a simplified tax rate was set at say 3% of your total take for the year. Where you weren't constantly monitored or spied on. Where we could ALL agree that we share this planet and it's resources and that those resources were for everyone at a reasonable rates. Where governments instituted by the people, for the people and of the people actually adhered to the teachings of the Constitution and the Founding Fathers who warned and prodded against what we, as a country have now become. Freedom is freedom, it doesn't apply to where it's convenient, it applies to us all in all circumstances. Self determination of one's values and principles determines where it should be reigned in.

 

+2

It's tough to determine a moral standard everyone can agree on. However, many of the moral standards that have been in place in our country for years are under attack by the minority. The latest is pedophilia: LifeSiteNews Mobile | The homosexual Left?s new crusade: Normalizing adult-child sex. This makes my blood boil.

 

Interesting thread.

I was a philosophy major, and my senior seminar class on ethics was quite tedious and ultimately a bit disheartening (Trying to make sense of John Rawls and his Theory of Justice was a painstaking project). I found my literature classes exposed me to more and greater truths than my philosophy classes. The following poem by Rudyard Kipling, written shortly after the death of his son in WW1, is probably the best short piece on the subject of morality and society that I've seen:

THE GODS OF THE COPYBOOK HEADINGS

AS I PASS through my incarnations in every age and race,
I make my proper prostrations to the Gods of the Market Place.
Peering through reverent fingers I watch them flourish and fall,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings, I notice, outlast them all.

We were living in trees when they met us. They showed us each in turn
That Water would certainly wet us, as Fire would certainly burn:
But we found them lacking in Uplift, Vision and Breadth of Mind,
So we left them to teach the Gorillas while we followed the March of Mankind.

We moved as the Spirit listed. They never altered their pace,
Being neither cloud nor wind-borne like the Gods of the Market Place,
But they always caught up with our progress, and presently word would come
That a tribe had been wiped off its icefield, or the lights had gone out in Rome.

With the Hopes that our World is built on they were utterly out of touch,
They denied that the Moon was Stilton; they denied she was even Dutch;
They denied that Wishes were Horses; they denied that a Pig had Wings;
So we worshipped the Gods of the Market Who promised these beautiful things.

When the Cambrian measures were forming, They promised perpetual peace.
They swore, if we gave them our weapons, that the wars of the tribes would cease.
But when we disarmed They sold us and delivered us bound to our foe,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: "Stick to the Devil you know."

On the first Feminian Sandstones we were promised the Fuller Life
(Which started by loving our neighbour and ended by loving his wife)
Till our women had no more children and the men lost reason and faith,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: "The Wages of Sin is Death."

In the Carboniferous Epoch we were promised abundance for all,
By robbing selected Peter to pay for collective Paul;
But, though we had plenty of money, there was nothing our money could buy,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: "If you don't work you die."

Then the Gods of the Market tumbled, and their smooth-tongued wizards withdrew
And the hearts of the meanest were humbled and began to believe it was true
That All is not Gold that Glitters, and Two and Two make Four
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings limped up to explain it once more.

As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began.
That the Dog returns to his Vomit and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the Fire;

And that after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as Water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!
__________________________________________________ ________

- I'm betting on terror and slaughter, and not on human reason or the ethical pontifications of the PC consortium. I guess I'm just a glass half-empty guy -- Four horsemen of the Apocalypse and all that. (My personal religious beliefs, which I won't trouble you with, are the glass half-full part).