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MV-22 Pilot - Mil to Civ - Roadmap advice?

Old 05-09-2022, 07:54 AM
  #101  
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As far as building PIC time while at the controls as an FO the majors only count PIC time if you signed for the aircraft. Which means that they don't consider time at the controls while an FO as PIC time.
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Old 05-09-2022, 09:05 AM
  #102  
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Originally Posted by Jhsouders View Post
Got it. So it sounds like regionals are most likely the better bet. The 135 gig I was looking at was a 7 on 7 off flying citations around the country. The schedule sounds workable, but like you said there can be a bunch of random and unfortunate caveats that make the job undesirable over just showing up and flying at a regional.
Again, the devil is in the details but it's generally true that the best jobs go to somebody's best buddy.



Originally Posted by Jhsouders View Post
I will only have around 100 TPIC time from the military. Will that be looked down upon? While working as a FO at a regional, will "time at the controls" qualify as PIC time should I want to upgrade to the Majors?
100 TPIC is a bit low from the mil but in this climate I think they'd call it good enough (assuming your record is good). They do hire a few regional SICs with zero TPIC, and you're head and shoulders above that.

For airline (and most civilian employer) purposes TPIC means only the time that you signed for the airplane. Even CA IOE is still SIC since the LCA is the PIC. Do not muddy your TPIC waters with "sole manipulator" time. I know we logged sole man PIC in general aviation and that's OK, they're used to seeing it but not for TPIC.

Originally Posted by Jhsouders View Post
Any concerns with picking a certain regional carrier if you have a specific Major in mind? It seems like with the hiring these days, it wouldn't make sense to sit the 5+ years at a regional until you get flowed to the Major they have a deal with. I would like to pick a regional that has the best chance of giving me a close domicile, then move to the domicile I get slotted for at a major. Coming out of the military I would like to reduce the number of moves where possible.
With mil wings you're not going to need flow, unless maybe you had some really bad adverse event and thrown out of the mil early. You probably don't even need flow for a DUI right now, if it was in the distant past.

I would focus on junior domiciles like you say. But consider that some of the smaller regionals might shut down in the near/mid-term due to pilot shortage. Especially if they operate only 50-seaters. If it were me I'd probably stick with a bigger one. Or a wholly owned... if they shut down the wholly-owned regionals, they'd probably just flow all the pilots as quickly as they can train them.



Originally Posted by Jhsouders View Post
Upgrade to a regional Captain or upgrade to a Major legacy? What requirements would there be for each?
Legally both are the same: Unrestricted ATP + 1000 hours 121 SIC. Certain 135 PIC time can count, and certain mil time can also count for partial credit, but I'm not sure where the plopter fits into that, look at 121.436. IIRC plopter is not an "airplane".

For regionals right now, you should be able to upgrade as soon as you meet the regulatory mins, although it might or might not be in your preferred base.

For majors, it totally depends on growth/retirements... for the big three it's going to be very quick, ie as low as one year. Maybe even less if the airline allows probationary pilots to upgrade... UAL does not, but DAL does IIRC. ULCC's probably 3-5 years? AS and SW probably ten+ years.
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Old 05-09-2022, 11:57 AM
  #103  
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Originally Posted by rickair7777 View Post
With mil wings you're not going to need flow, unless maybe you had some really bad adverse event and thrown out of the mil early. You probably don't even need flow for a DUI right now, if it was in the distant past.
Can you please elaborate on this? If I go to a regional that flows to X major airline and they advertise a 4 year flow. Can I apply and be hired by X major airline after 12-18 months and 1000 SIC time and get hired on without flow? I assume there would be some sort of flow agreement that I would have to abide by to get to X airline or I would have to apply somewhere else.


Originally Posted by rickair7777 View Post
Legally both are the same: Unrestricted ATP + 1000 hours 121 SIC. Certain 135 PIC time can count, and certain mil time can also count for partial credit, but I'm not sure where the plopter fits into that, look at 121.436. IIRC plopter is not an "airplane".

For regionals right now, you should be able to upgrade as soon as you meet the regulatory mins, although it might or might not be in your preferred base.
So your saying once I get the 1000 SIC I could potentially go either route, upgrade to Captain at the Regional or get hired on at a Major as a FO?

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I have been hearing lately that V-22 time is more or less looked as airplane time.

Originally Posted by rickair7777 View Post
For majors, it totally depends on growth/retirements... for the big three it's going to be very quick, ie as low as one year. Maybe even less if the airline allows probationary pilots to upgrade... UAL does not, but DAL does IIRC. ULCC's probably 3-5 years? AS and SW probably ten+ years.
It takes 10+ years to get Captain at Alaska and SW!?
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Old 05-09-2022, 04:32 PM
  #104  
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Originally Posted by Jhsouders View Post
Can you please elaborate on this? If I go to a regional that flows to X major airline and they advertise a 4 year flow. Can I apply and be hired by X major airline after 12-18 months and 1000 SIC time and get hired on without flow? I assume there would be some sort of flow agreement that I would have to abide by to get to X airline or I would have to apply somewhere else.
Flow programs exist to keep regionals manned, so some of them do not allow you to apply "around" the flow. Details vary by program, so you'd have to research them in detail. Generally there will be strings attached.

They don't really "advertise" a specific time to flow, that can vary with market conditions and hiring. Flows are typically entitled to X% of available new hire slots, up to a certain cap (to keep the regional from all flowing at once). Typically it would be something like two years/2000 hours as PIC, then by seniority order amongst those eligible to flow. Again need to do research.



Originally Posted by fasteddie800 View Post
So your saying once I get the 1000 SIC I could potentially go either route, upgrade to Captain at the Regional or get hired on at a Major as a FO?


You do not need the 1000 121 to get hired at a major. Technically & legally the regulatory mins are the same for all 121, regional or major.

In reality you need an unrestricted ATP to be competitive for top-tier majors, and most LCC. TPIC is best for top-tier, but people get hired without it.



Originally Posted by fasteddie800 View Post
Please correct me if I am wrong, but I have been hearing lately that V-22 time is more or less looked as airplane time.


More or less, for airline *competitive* purposes.

For FAA legal regulatory purposes it is not an "airplane" as far as I know, pretty sure it's a Powered Lift aircraft. 121.436 specifies "airplane" time. Different regulatory categories, read the FARs literally... when they say airplane, they mean Airplane.



Originally Posted by fasteddie800 View Post
It takes 10+ years to get Captain at Alaska and SW!?


AS will probably be there by the time you're in the running, SW already is. They don't have the old-guy bubble, their hiring and growth followed a different trajectory, so lots of younger people on the list
, especially SWA.
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Old 08-26-2022, 09:42 PM
  #105  
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What's the latest on whether or not a V-22 pilot actually needs 250 PIC of an airplane (i.e., NOT a tiltrotor) to either get the R-ATP or be hired at a regional airline?

I'm at the point where I'm calculating my hours and how much I can realistically expect to fly over the next year or so, and I may only just barely hit 750 before I EAS. This is assuming the worst in that the monitor does not cut me orders for a second flying tour of any kind, which is becoming more common these days (MV-22 community is not at all undermanned at the company grade level like it used to be).

I figure more flight time (even if it's just renting single-engine Cessnas/Pipers) can only help, but for the amount (120-ish) I would actually need to hit 250 PIC of airplane time we're talking a very non-trivial amount of money.
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Old 08-26-2022, 10:40 PM
  #106  
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Originally Posted by HazyIPA View Post
What's the latest on whether or not a V-22 pilot actually needs 250 PIC of an airplane (i.e., NOT a tiltrotor) to either get the R-ATP or be hired at a regional airline?

I'm at the point where I'm calculating my hours and how much I can realistically expect to fly over the next year or so, and I may only just barely hit 750 before I EAS. This is assuming the worst in that the monitor does not cut me orders for a second flying tour of any kind, which is becoming more common these days (MV-22 community is not at all undermanned at the company grade level like it used to be).

I figure more flight time (even if it's just renting single-engine Cessnas/Pipers) can only help, but for the amount (120-ish) I would actually need to hit 250 PIC of airplane time we're talking a very non-trivial amount of money.
I'm seeing in 14 CFR part 1 that a tiltrotor is classified as "Powered Lift", which would be the category rating (airplane, rotorcraft, glider, etc.).

The ATP rules in Part 61 for airplane category (61.159) include: 1500 hours of time is not category specific, 500 hours of XC time is not category specific, etc. When you get down to the 250 PIC time, it specifies in an airplane (for an airplane category rating ATP).

Under the restricted cert, it says that except for the total reduced hours and 200 XC, you have to still meet all the other requirements of 61.159, which would include the 250 PIC in category.

61.163 is the aeronautical experience requirements to get an ATP in "powered lift", where the 250 hours of V-22 PIC time could apply towards the 250 PIC requirement.

If anyone sees it differently, fill in.
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Old 09-22-2022, 04:56 AM
  #107  
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This dropped yesterday.

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/...2022-20328.htm

Powered Lift time is now completely fair game to satisfy the Airplane ATP prerequisite of 250 Airplane PIC hours. The only stipulation is one can only use time attained in "horizontal flight," which we all know is probably 90% or more of our V-22 time. Any airplane flying one does on the side is simply icing on the cake.
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Old 09-22-2022, 08:09 AM
  #108  
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The revised rule section from the final rule information:

2. Amend Sec. 61.159 by revising paragraph (a)(5) to read as follows:


Sec. 61.159 Aeronautical experience: Airplane category rating.

(a) * * *
(5) 250 hours of flight time in an airplane as a pilot in command,
or as second in command performing the duties of pilot in command while
under the supervision of a pilot in command, or any combination
thereof, subject to the following:
(i) The flight time requirement must include at least--
(A) 100 hours of cross-country flight time; and
(B) 25 hours of night flight time.
(ii) Except for a person who has been removed from flying status
for lack of proficiency or because of a disciplinary action involving
aircraft operations, a U.S. military pilot or former U.S. military
pilot who meets the requirements of Sec. 61.73(b)(1), or a military
pilot in the Armed Forces of a foreign contracting State to the
Convention on International Civil Aviation who meets the requirements
of Sec. 61.73(c)(1), may credit flight time in a powered-lift aircraft
operated in horizontal flight toward the flight time requirement.
* * * * *
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Old 09-24-2022, 06:58 PM
  #109  
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Congrats to the Osprey pilots. Hurry up and drop those apps.
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Old 01-09-2023, 05:18 AM
  #110  
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I wanted to give an update to the V-22 hopefuls out there. I have my unrestricted ATP, 1650 TT, 650 PIC. I did the standard V-22 training pipeline (T-6, C-12, TH-57) then have flown the V-22 for the rest of my flight time.

Delta Application submitted: 2 Oct 2022
Invited for assessment: 2 Jan 2023
Invite to interview: End of February 2023
Date of availability: 1 Sep 2023

Get those apps in pure breeds!
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