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Eat your young

Old 08-24-2023, 08:43 AM
  #31  
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Minnie,


I mean… Alaska doesn’t have the best track record with maintenance….

Either way, this looks really bad for your airline. Pilot error or maintenance issues don’t sell tickets.
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Old 08-24-2023, 09:13 AM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by ZebraSpots
Minnie,


I mean… Alaska doesn’t have the best track record with maintenance….

Either way, this looks really bad for your airline. Pilot error or maintenance issues don’t sell tickets.
Oh you mean the one fatal accident they had 23 years ago? AS is on every list of the top 10 safest domestic airlines. Hell, Forbes has it #8 of the top 20 airlines worldwide. https://www.forbes.com/sites/laurabe...h=37b87ff39f54

How can you be so wrong, all the time?
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Old 08-24-2023, 11:54 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by MinRest
I'll stop ya right there.

The airlines as a whole have negotiated their butts off for what they have. Most major airlines in the last 2 years alone have approved strike votes, asked to be released from the NMB, voted down AIPs, and a couple have gutted their entire MEC and NCs to get what they want. NJA management, the union, and the pilot group were fat dumb, and happy with the situation until they saw the airlines get bigger slices of cake at the birthday party. Post COVID economy is good which of course helps but just about all of the airlines were in negotiations BEFORE that. Everyone rides the coattails in this industry to an extent, but the hard work has to be done within each pilot group, and its union. Luck has nothing to do with where the airlines are at right now. Just as luck or lack of luck, has nothing to do with where NJA is right now. You as a pilot group got exactly what you voted for. The union and pilot group shot themselves in the foot and are now throwing a tantrum like they have been wronged. It is actually a bit pathetic. Your pilot group isn't even unified in what it wants, or its support of the union. You all aren't only eating your young, you are eating each other.

You are absolutely right, the airlines have negotiated their butts off. But... there's always a but.. first of all they had expired contract and were already in negotiation before the post-covid skyrocket style recovery. They were in the best case scenario, in Chapter 6s. They were far ahead of where the NJA pilot group is. The strike votes are just for the gallery, no one goes on strike until allowed by the prez. Of course everyone is going to vote yes to a strike vote. They voted down AIPs, that's a very important point. Their union gave them the choice, gave them the right to vote and they voted them down.
Another very big difference between the airlines pilots who were 3-4-5-6 years past contract expiration, they didn't have unrealistic demands, they were actually pretty adult about what they wanted.

This here: "The union and pilot group shot themselves in the foot and are now throwing a tantrum like they have been wronged. It is actually a bit pathetic." 100% correct, the sad reality.
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Old 08-25-2023, 05:46 AM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by SonnyTuckson

This here: "The union and pilot group shot themselves in the foot and are now throwing a tantrum like they have been wronged. It is actually a bit pathetic." 100% correct, the sad reality.
Bingo. We are in IBB not section 6. The company has no obligation to “open the books”

We fumbled on section 20 years ago because ML thought he knew better than everyone else.

TN got the last laugh though. Damn the ranch full speed ahead.
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Old 08-25-2023, 06:06 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by SonnyTuckson
This here: "The union and pilot group shot themselves in the foot and are now throwing a tantrum like they have been wronged. It is actually a bit pathetic." 100% correct, the sad reality.

It's not that dramatic really.... We're just asking the Boss for a raise in a time when our company is earning record profits -- primarily due to our efforts.

At first, we used a gentler tone... When we asked for parity with pilots who have the same training, experience, and background as us - you know, the type of pilots our customers pay a premium for - the company walked out of negotiations. (who exactly is throwing the temper tantrum?)

The quieter voice was ignored... we're just speaking a bit louder now that's all.
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Old 08-25-2023, 06:24 AM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by MinRest
Oh you mean the one fatal accident they had 23 years ago? AS is on every list of the top 10 safest domestic airlines. Hell, Forbes has it #8 of the top 20 airlines worldwide. https://www.forbes.com/sites/laurabe...h=37b87ff39f54

How can you be so wrong, all the time?

Are you seriously defending a fatal accident as safe?

Wow.

I bet all of those passengers were feeling that Forbes Magic as they deplaned from an air stair in the middle of the night from a crippled aircraft that was collapsed on the left after the crew added power and dragged the engine along the taxiway to its final resting spot.

Now that’s service.
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Old 08-25-2023, 11:59 AM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by jetlag7
It's not that dramatic really.... We're just asking the Boss for a raise in a time when our company is earning record profits -- primarily due to our efforts.

At first, we used a gentler tone... When we asked for parity with pilots who have the same training, experience, and background as us - you know, the type of pilots our customers pay a premium for - the company walked out of negotiations. (who exactly is throwing the temper tantrum?)

The quieter voice was ignored... we're just speaking a bit louder now that's all.
We are asking for an unrealistic raise we know they cannot give, so that we can keep fighting for fighting.

We will never get parity with the AA/DL/UA. We are not doing the same job, no one, except ourselves, is comparing us with them, they dont even see us as equal to them, our pic's dont have the same responsibility, stress level and stress ours have. NetJets pilots delay flights at will, refuse to go at will. It is unrealistic to ask parity. And on a side note, I do not want their vacations packages and I do not want their heal care insurance packages, among other things.

The company walked out of negotiations after getting fed up of the union negotiating committee walking at snail pace, asking for irrelevant things in an IBI, trying to renegotiate a contract mid-term.

The $245K extra I was going to make in the next 3 years, base pay + FDP, was looking pretty good. The SDP offer was pretty good. There were stupid points that could have been argued and discussed. The negotiating committee walked away. Decided for the first time in the history of negotiation that an BF is actually an LBF ha ha ha. That was done purely to lengthen the fight. ML loves a good fight, not always been interested in the results.
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Old 08-25-2023, 02:16 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by SonnyTuckson
We are asking for an unrealistic raise we know they cannot give, so that we can keep fighting for fighting.

We will never get parity with the AA/DL/UA. We are not doing the same job, no one, except ourselves, is comparing us with them, they dont even see us as equal to them, our pic's dont have the same responsibility, stress level and stress ours have. NetJets pilots delay flights at will, refuse to go at will. It is unrealistic to ask parity. And on a side note, I do not want their vacations packages and I do not want their heal care insurance packages, among other things.

The company walked out of negotiations after getting fed up of the union negotiating committee walking at snail pace, asking for irrelevant things in an IBI, trying to renegotiate a contract mid-term.

The $245K extra I was going to make in the next 3 years, base pay + FDP, was looking pretty good. The SDP offer was pretty good. There were stupid points that could have been argued and discussed. The negotiating committee walked away. Decided for the first time in the history of negotiation that an BF is actually an LBF ha ha ha. That was done purely to lengthen the fight. ML loves a good fight, not always been interested in the results.
How do you have any idea what they can and cannot give? How do you know that what the union is asking for is unreasonable? How do you know that the union is asking for parity with the the big 3 majors that have gotten new contracts or TAs? That isn't what they said when I heard some of it from the mouths of our negotiators. I can say that parity with JetBlue has been mentioned. I can say that the parity with JetBlue was mentioned because they have a similar (and now maybe even slightly smaller) revenue stream. AJ is on record demanding at least a 10% profit (which is far and away higher than JetBlue's profit). That seems to indicate that the company could pay parity or more than JetBlue. The company did give the books to the economists hired by the union this year. They did determine what the company could afford. The pilots were polled and initially asked for less than the company could afford. I do believe the next ask will be even higher. I seriously doubt we will ever get parity with Delta or the others, but I will continue to push for at least keeping up to a similar percentage behind that we were before their new contracts and I can't understand why anyone believes that is unreasonable.

I also don't really understand what your argument is concerning the stress levels of captains at the majors vs NetJets. I can say with certainty that there is stress for any PIC in any position and that PICs at the majors also delay flights and sometimes refuse to go when it is unsafe. I know for a fact that they can also call in fatigued. We are responsible for less people, but that is also the case for the regionals. FedEx and UPS are also paid vastly better than NetJets and they have zero passenger responsibility unless they are flying a jumpseater. Basically, what a company can pay comes down to money in and money out, not stress levels or the amount of people in the back. NetJets has enough money coming in to reasonably pay a lot more.
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Old 08-25-2023, 05:04 PM
  #39  
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Not to mention two of the largest expenses are training and sell offs. Oh gee, guess what. BKS owns FSI and EJM, who handles a large amount of our sell offs. Money from one pocket to the other.
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Old 08-26-2023, 02:31 AM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by Pervis
Not to mention two of the largest expenses are training and sell offs. Oh gee, guess what. BKS owns FSI and EJM, who handles a large amount of our sell offs. Money from one pocket to the other.
You do know how sell offs work, right? Serious question.
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