Key Lime Air's SIC to PIC program
#61
In some countries pilots are hired with zero flight time and are paid while gaining their initial certifications. Prior to getting hired with SWA pilots have to buy a type rating. Training contracts were common at regional airlines and are due to come back. Essentially pilots paid for their own training.
Exactly where should we as pilots draw the line? Why is it acceptable to pay for your own type rating to get a job but not for initial line experience?
Skyhigh
Exactly where should we as pilots draw the line? Why is it acceptable to pay for your own type rating to get a job but not for initial line experience?
Skyhigh
As far as training contracts and type ratings are concerned, the fact is that as soon as you sit down in the pilots seat (including IOE) YOU are earning the money, not the company you are flying for. And yes I can hear you making the argument that training contracts are the same as paying for training, but everyone who enters into a training contract knows prior to beginning training the conditions of the obligations to that contract. It still doesn't change, promisary note or not, you will still receive a paycheck for the duties you are performing.
Sky,
You're spot on man. I'd like to inquire as to the number of folks out there right now that are instructing and what their prospects are? As far as I can tell, no one is hiring pilots without 3k plus hours (and a motherload of that needs to be twin time). I could certainly be wrong, but with 1200 tt and 150 me, I have submitted over 300 resumes and recieved *******all.
You're spot on man. I'd like to inquire as to the number of folks out there right now that are instructing and what their prospects are? As far as I can tell, no one is hiring pilots without 3k plus hours (and a motherload of that needs to be twin time). I could certainly be wrong, but with 1200 tt and 150 me, I have submitted over 300 resumes and recieved *******all.
#63
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Posts: 450
It's not a hypothetical. We do hire an pay an FO to sit in that seat and the boss-man is considering selling it instead.
Care to answer or are you still interested in tap dancing around the question? I just want to see where the line is drawn.
"The passengers don't like seeing an empty seat."
- Bossman
I don't buy it. Most of the time I get "oh there's two pilots today?", but it isn't my call, plus my FO is a good guy so I don't mind having the extra set of hands and eyes.
We're insured and "dispatched" single pilot, the SIC is listed as a passenger...so, no it doesn't affect insurance.
Yes.
Yes.
-mini
Care to answer or are you still interested in tap dancing around the question? I just want to see where the line is drawn.
Why do they have that FO there anyway (insurance reasons maybe)?
- Bossman
I don't buy it. Most of the time I get "oh there's two pilots today?", but it isn't my call, plus my FO is a good guy so I don't mind having the extra set of hands and eyes.
If that's the case, how would having a paying FO lower insurance costs?
Did it ever occur to you that paying FO's are considered a liability?
For that matter, to respond to the other post, do you realize that ours is not the only profession where student workers pay their mentors for the sake of liability?
-mini
#64
You sound like a guy who is stuck as a CFI. I have noticed that instructors are the ones who seem to be the most alarmed by others buying a job to get ahead. So, Are you?
Another thing, Your instructor might have had a fast transition a few years ago but pilots now will have to struggle for a long time to get anyplace. In hard times often pilots have to make their own luck. $$$
Skyhigh
Another thing, Your instructor might have had a fast transition a few years ago but pilots now will have to struggle for a long time to get anyplace. In hard times often pilots have to make their own luck. $$$
Skyhigh
#65
Sky,
You're spot on man. I'd like to inquire as to the number of folks out there right now that are instructing and what their prospects are? As far as I can tell, no one is hiring pilots without 3k plus hours (and a motherload of that needs to be twin time). I could certainly be wrong, but with 1200 tt and 150 me, I have submitted over 300 resumes and recieved *******all.
You're spot on man. I'd like to inquire as to the number of folks out there right now that are instructing and what their prospects are? As far as I can tell, no one is hiring pilots without 3k plus hours (and a motherload of that needs to be twin time). I could certainly be wrong, but with 1200 tt and 150 me, I have submitted over 300 resumes and recieved *******all.
#67
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2007
Position: single pilot cargo, turboprop
Posts: 484
It's not a hypothetical. We do hire an pay an FO to sit in that seat and the boss-man is considering selling it instead.
Care to answer or are you still interested in tap dancing around the question? I just want to see where the line is drawn.
"The passengers don't like seeing an empty seat."
- Bossman
I don't buy it. Most of the time I get "oh there's two pilots today?", but it isn't my call, plus my FO is a good guy so I don't mind having the extra set of hands and eyes.
We're insured and "dispatched" single pilot, the SIC is listed as a passenger...so, no it doesn't affect insurance.
-mini
Care to answer or are you still interested in tap dancing around the question? I just want to see where the line is drawn.
"The passengers don't like seeing an empty seat."
- Bossman
I don't buy it. Most of the time I get "oh there's two pilots today?", but it isn't my call, plus my FO is a good guy so I don't mind having the extra set of hands and eyes.
We're insured and "dispatched" single pilot, the SIC is listed as a passenger...so, no it doesn't affect insurance.
-mini
My company does both pax and cargo, but you'd never see a paying FO on the pax planes.
What can I say? I guess you have to ask "if no one payed, would the boss still hire someone?" That's where I'd have to draw a firm line. Sounds to me like you can fly just fine without them FWIW. But an outright replacement of a hired FO with a paying one, no I don't agree with it.
To tell you the truth, I haven't had an FO at my base for several months, but no one has seemed to notice. It reconfirms my belief that it's not something the company is dependent upon to turn a profit.
#68
Line Holder
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Nov 2009
Posts: 45
My bad, you're right, I misunderstood you. Are we still talking about Key Lime? Or someone else?
My company does both pax and cargo, but you'd never see a paying FO on the pax planes.
What can I say? I guess you have to ask "if no one payed, would the boss still hire someone?" That's where I'd have to draw a firm line. Sounds to me like you can fly just fine without them FWIW. But an outright replacement of a hired FO with a paying one, no I don't agree with it.
To tell you the truth, I haven't had an FO at my base for several months, but no one has seemed to notice. It reconfirms my belief that it's not something the company is dependent upon to turn a profit.
My company does both pax and cargo, but you'd never see a paying FO on the pax planes.
What can I say? I guess you have to ask "if no one payed, would the boss still hire someone?" That's where I'd have to draw a firm line. Sounds to me like you can fly just fine without them FWIW. But an outright replacement of a hired FO with a paying one, no I don't agree with it.
To tell you the truth, I haven't had an FO at my base for several months, but no one has seemed to notice. It reconfirms my belief that it's not something the company is dependent upon to turn a profit.
I agree with you on that point. Wouldn't more cmpanies be doing it if it were a major source of income and something they had to rely on? From what I've seen, Key Lime is one of only a handful that has a program like this.
#69
Line Holder
Joined APC: Aug 2008
Posts: 59
I would imagine most other companies have a vested interest in maintaining their reputations. As you've seen here the majority of professional pilots hold Key Lime in general and these types of programs in particular in pretty low regard. It simply isn't worth it to them to compromise an image that takes years upon years to build.
#70
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