Nevjets

You responded to the part of my post that said the law did more than just require an ATP. I specifically said in the part you quoted that it required science based duty and flight time limitations. So that's why I said they were science based and not arbitrary. You didn't make it clear that you were referring to the ATP rule. But like I said, ALL flight time requirements in part 61 and airline training footprints are arbitrary. Why not advocate for eliminating ALL of them? Or maybe these hourly requirements added to the safety of tens of millions of people moved by regionals. Anyhow, outcome based safety measurements is faulty, no matter who uses that argument.

As for the pay shortage, search the FAA database. There have been thousands of airplane ATPs issued since the regulation took effect. And there are tens of thousands more ATPs than there are airline pilot jobs. There is no pilot shortage, that's a statistical fact. Once you increase pay, you start convincing more and more pilots to apply to airlines. It's simple economics.

SonicFlyer

Uh no, again you keep mindlessly reciting union talking points.

There is a shortage, otherwise airlines wouldn't be parking aircraft


Many airlines 1yr FO pay has quadrupled in less than 10 years and they are still unable to find enough applicants. The military is having problems keeping up their staff levels too.

Pay is a factor, but it clearly isn't the only factor. Anyone who can think for themselves would know this. Mandatory retirement, global expansion, increased cost of training, increased requirements (1500hr), and the lifestyle are all reasons why there is indeed a shortage.

Again, nice try, but your talking points don't fly.

CBreezy

It's really hard and expensive to become a Doctor. Maybe we should reduce the certification process so it's easier. I mean, all they really have to do is use WebMD.

The military is having a hard time retaining experienced pilots and it has nothing to do with the civilian pilot shortage. Apples to oranges. The regionals have benefited for decades on a pilot oversupply issue. Now, training costs 75k minimum and people aren't going to work for 35k a year. Raise the pay to mainline rates and the pilot shortage would mysteriously disappear.

SonicFlyer

False comparison.

If doctor requirements were bumped up arbitrarily and politically a few years ago after being the same for decades, yeah then there would be a case for fixing the policy mistake that was made.



Except that the economics don't support regional airlines paying mainline rates to their pilots. And again, simply raising pay won't fix the shortage.

Bloggs

Piffle.

The MODEL doesn't support mainline rates, the ECONOMICS certainly do.

And again, simply raising pay WILL fix the shortage.

sflpilot

It's more than just increasing pay. Realistically in order to fix the problem the regionals need to be done away with and all the flying goes back to mainline. Delta already has a CRJ payscale. You would get the hours for the ATP and then start at AA, DL, UA, SWA, UPS, FedEx for the best candidates and the others would start at JB, NK, F9 etc. Under that system I don't think there would be a shortage of people wanting to enter the career.

CBreezy

Some of the highest paying regionals are having no problem filling classes. Look at Envoy, PDT, and Skywest. Two have flows to majors. Look at the airlines struggling. Great Lakes and Silver. They have the lowest pay. The market is finally adjusting to allow for a practical ROI for pilots. If you pay them, they will come. It does require some planning. As much as regional leadership wants it, insta-pilots are a thing of the past. Even still, it only takes two years to make an ATP. I don't think I'd want a stranger with less than that experience behind the closed door.

Ronaldo

I guess I don't understand why people treat the airline industry as two industries? I understand there are carriers that sell their own tickets and FFD carriers. However...

There is (now) one labor pool of skilled pilots. How many flights has United cancelled for lack of pilots? Why is it a "pilot shortage" when pilots are moving from companies with low pay and benefits to companies with good pay and benefits? Factor in #of ATPs vs number of people working in the airline industry and the other components the BLS uses to determine a shortage and you have a few indicators but nothing conclusive.

An analogy might be declaring that there is a doctor shortage because your local strip mall medical center doesn't have a doctor, while all the decent private practices and hospitals are staffed.

Nevjets

Pay (price) is always a factor in economics. Pilots are not a finite commodity. The total compensation of airline pilots has been so severely depressed in the last 15 years that people were not choosing the career. The increase in pay now is barely a blip when adjusting total compensation to today.

It's also a fact that THOUSANDS of new airplane ATPs have been certified since the rule took effect. That's more than what all airlines have hired.

There two things are facts you can look up for yourself.

CBreezy

But unions are evil and the companies are trying their hardest to help the little guy. They have everyone's best interest in....zzzzzzzzz