Logging sim time towards ATP
06-18-2020, 09:07 PM
#11
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Originally Posted by Meow1215
Yes, and none of those devices meet the definition or requirements to log them as flight time for the aeronautical experience requirements for an ATP certificate.
61.159(a)(3) allows 25 hours towards the category+class requirements in a full-flight sim. FTD no bueno there.
61.159(a)(4)(i) allows 25 hours towards the instrument requirements in a full-flight sim or FTD. I doubt this comes up often, most folks get the instrument in actual or hood during training or time-building. But if necessary (and the airline's mins allowed it) you could use FTD time or the new-hire sim time.
Last edited by rickair7777; 06-18-2020 at 09:20 PM.
06-19-2020, 04:47 AM
#12
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2019
Posts: 101
Originally Posted by Meow1215
Yes, and none of those devices meet the definition or requirements to log them as flight time for the aeronautical experience requirements for an ATP certificate.
06-19-2020, 07:14 AM
#13
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Joined APC: Dec 2017
Posts: 658
FTD/ATD and ATP cross country 50 miles point to point time, is very sticky. Yes it’s legal, and it meets the requirements per the FAR. But, I’ve heard of more and more companies not accepting it for their requirements, and be careful as well. I know a few people
who went to INDOC using those times because the recruiters signed off on it, only to be sent home by training when they got there.
who went to INDOC using those times because the recruiters signed off on it, only to be sent home by training when they got there.
06-20-2020, 07:20 AM
#14
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Joined APC: Mar 2019
Posts: 1,181
Originally Posted by rickair7777
Actually that's not true. You're confusing different parts of the ATP reg.
61.159(a)(3) allows 25 hours towards the category+class requirements in a full-flight sim. FTD no bueno there.
61.159(a)(4)(i) allows 25 hours towards the instrument requirements in a full-flight sim or FTD. I doubt this comes up often, most folks get the instrument in actual or hood during training or time-building. But if necessary (and the airline's mins allowed it) you could use FTD time or the new-hire sim time.
61.159(a)(3) allows 25 hours towards the category+class requirements in a full-flight sim. FTD no bueno there.
61.159(a)(4)(i) allows 25 hours towards the instrument requirements in a full-flight sim or FTD. I doubt this comes up often, most folks get the instrument in actual or hood during training or time-building. But if necessary (and the airline's mins allowed it) you could use FTD time or the new-hire sim time.
06-20-2020, 08:25 AM
#15
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Originally Posted by Meow1215
Rick - you are the one confused. He wants to use dual given in an FTD for TT towards an ATP. The answer is a hard “no”.
But your statement was categorical and thus not quite correct. Sim (and FTD) can be used for certain specific ATP aeronautical experience requirements, including Cat/Class (25 hours sim), Instrument (25 hours sim/FTD). Additionally 61.159(a)(6) allows up to 100 hours of sim/FTD towards the "total" requirements of 61.159(a).
Also, this an important distinction which frequently confuses people:
Sim (or FTD) time is NEVER under ANY circumstances "Flight Time". Never, ever.
Far 1.1 defines "Flight Time" as time in a airplane moving under it's own power for the purpose of flight.
Where the FAR's allow the SUBSTITUTION of sim/FTD time for Flight Time experience, that does NOT mean you can log sim/FTD as flight time... it ONLY means that you can substitute that time in LIEU OF the specified Flight Time. So if you're using the 25 hour sim allowance for ME, you would go to the checkride with 25 hours of AMEL Flight Time logged plus 25 hours of AMEL sim logged in your book and on the 8710.
To make it even more confusing... there is a definition of "Pilot Time" in 61.1 which includes sim/FTD time and ALSO dual given in a sim/FTD.
Further point of confusion: There is no FAR definition of "Total Time". Left undefined, you might make a case that "Pilot Time" can be counted as "Total Time". Now to really blow your mind: Pilot Time includes sim dual given! So now we're back to where we started, and maybe you can make a case that sim dual given, while not specifically allowed, is also not specifically prohibited towards the ATP TT requirement. But I personally would not try it because it would confuse employers and examiners. Maybe there's an FAA legal interp. on that.
For most pilots, what we log as "Total Time" is really "Flight Time". Best to keep any "Pilot Time" in separate columns. Most employers don't want non-airplane time mixed up in your total time.
This aspect of the regs is a poop-show, and I'm sorry for subjecting you to it. I'll buy you a beer if we ever meet.
06-20-2020, 10:06 AM
#16
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Originally Posted by rickair7777
I agree that's not a good idea.
But your statement was categorical and thus not quite correct. Sim (and FTD) can be used for certain specific ATP aeronautical experience requirements, including Cat/Class (25 hours sim), Instrument (25 hours sim/FTD). Additionally 61.159(a)(6) allows up to 100 hours of sim/FTD towards the "total" requirements of 61.159(a).
Also, this an important distinction which frequently confuses people:
Sim (or FTD) time is NEVER under ANY circumstances "Flight Time". Never, ever.
Far 1.1 defines "Flight Time" as time in a airplane moving under it's own power for the purpose of flight.
Where the FAR's allow the SUBSTITUTION of sim/FTD time for Flight Time experience, that does NOT mean you can log sim/FTD as flight time... it ONLY means that you can substitute that time in LIEU OF the specified Flight Time. So if you're using the 25 hour sim allowance for ME, you would go to the checkride with 25 hours of AMEL Flight Time logged plus 25 hours of AMEL sim logged in your book and on the 8710.
To make it even more confusing... there is a definition of "Pilot Time" in 61.1 which includes sim/FTD time and ALSO dual given in a sim/FTD.
Further point of confusion: There is no FAR definition of "Total Time". Left undefined, you might make a case that "Pilot Time" can be counted as "Total Time". Now to really blow your mind: Pilot Time includes sim dual given! So now we're back to where we started, and maybe you can make a case that sim dual given, while not specifically allowed, is also not specifically prohibited towards the ATP TT requirement. But I personally would not try it because it would confuse employers and examiners. Maybe there's an FAA legal interp. on that.
For most pilots, what we log as "Total Time" is really "Flight Time". Best to keep any "Pilot Time" in separate columns. Most employers don't want non-airplane time mixed up in your total time.
This aspect of the regs is a poop-show, and I'm sorry for subjecting you to it. I'll buy you a beer if we ever meet.
But your statement was categorical and thus not quite correct. Sim (and FTD) can be used for certain specific ATP aeronautical experience requirements, including Cat/Class (25 hours sim), Instrument (25 hours sim/FTD). Additionally 61.159(a)(6) allows up to 100 hours of sim/FTD towards the "total" requirements of 61.159(a).
Also, this an important distinction which frequently confuses people:
Sim (or FTD) time is NEVER under ANY circumstances "Flight Time". Never, ever.
Far 1.1 defines "Flight Time" as time in a airplane moving under it's own power for the purpose of flight.
Where the FAR's allow the SUBSTITUTION of sim/FTD time for Flight Time experience, that does NOT mean you can log sim/FTD as flight time... it ONLY means that you can substitute that time in LIEU OF the specified Flight Time. So if you're using the 25 hour sim allowance for ME, you would go to the checkride with 25 hours of AMEL Flight Time logged plus 25 hours of AMEL sim logged in your book and on the 8710.
To make it even more confusing... there is a definition of "Pilot Time" in 61.1 which includes sim/FTD time and ALSO dual given in a sim/FTD.
Further point of confusion: There is no FAR definition of "Total Time". Left undefined, you might make a case that "Pilot Time" can be counted as "Total Time". Now to really blow your mind: Pilot Time includes sim dual given! So now we're back to where we started, and maybe you can make a case that sim dual given, while not specifically allowed, is also not specifically prohibited towards the ATP TT requirement. But I personally would not try it because it would confuse employers and examiners. Maybe there's an FAA legal interp. on that.
For most pilots, what we log as "Total Time" is really "Flight Time". Best to keep any "Pilot Time" in separate columns. Most employers don't want non-airplane time mixed up in your total time.
This aspect of the regs is a poop-show, and I'm sorry for subjecting you to it. I'll buy you a beer if we ever meet.
06-20-2020, 12:38 PM
#17
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Joined APC: Jan 2006
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Originally Posted by Bigdog2003
This is exactly what I’m talking about. It is like there isn’t a set defined rule against it but also not a clear cut rule for it. It is a lot like the rule where you can use night landings towards night flight time but you don’t log the time as you would if it were in flight but you just count the landings in lieu of.
But the real-world right answer is pretty easy: employers do not expect to see sim dual given towards ATP mins.
06-20-2020, 02:25 PM
#18
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Joined APC: Jun 2019
Posts: 101
Originally Posted by rickair7777
I agree that's not a good idea.
But your statement was categorical and thus not quite correct. Sim (and FTD) can be used for certain specific ATP aeronautical experience requirements, including Cat/Class (25 hours sim), Instrument (25 hours sim/FTD). Additionally 61.159(a)(6) allows up to 100 hours of sim/FTD towards the "total" requirements of 61.159(a).
Also, this an important distinction which frequently confuses people:
Sim (or FTD) time is NEVER under ANY circumstances "Flight Time". Never, ever.
Far 1.1 defines "Flight Time" as time in a airplane moving under it's own power for the purpose of flight.
Where the FAR's allow the SUBSTITUTION of sim/FTD time for Flight Time experience, that does NOT mean you can log sim/FTD as flight time... it ONLY means that you can substitute that time in LIEU OF the specified Flight Time. So if you're using the 25 hour sim allowance for ME, you would go to the checkride with 25 hours of AMEL Flight Time logged plus 25 hours of AMEL sim logged in your book and on the 8710.
To make it even more confusing... there is a definition of "Pilot Time" in 61.1 which includes sim/FTD time and ALSO dual given in a sim/FTD.
Further point of confusion: There is no FAR definition of "Total Time". Left undefined, you might make a case that "Pilot Time" can be counted as "Total Time". Now to really blow your mind: Pilot Time includes sim dual given! So now we're back to where we started, and maybe you can make a case that sim dual given, while not specifically allowed, is also not specifically prohibited towards the ATP TT requirement. But I personally would not try it because it would confuse employers and examiners. Maybe there's an FAA legal interp. on that.
For most pilots, what we log as "Total Time" is really "Flight Time". Best to keep any "Pilot Time" in separate columns. Most employers don't want non-airplane time mixed up in your total time.
This aspect of the regs is a poop-show, and I'm sorry for subjecting you to it. I'll buy you a beer if we ever meet.
But your statement was categorical and thus not quite correct. Sim (and FTD) can be used for certain specific ATP aeronautical experience requirements, including Cat/Class (25 hours sim), Instrument (25 hours sim/FTD). Additionally 61.159(a)(6) allows up to 100 hours of sim/FTD towards the "total" requirements of 61.159(a).
Also, this an important distinction which frequently confuses people:
Sim (or FTD) time is NEVER under ANY circumstances "Flight Time". Never, ever.
Far 1.1 defines "Flight Time" as time in a airplane moving under it's own power for the purpose of flight.
Where the FAR's allow the SUBSTITUTION of sim/FTD time for Flight Time experience, that does NOT mean you can log sim/FTD as flight time... it ONLY means that you can substitute that time in LIEU OF the specified Flight Time. So if you're using the 25 hour sim allowance for ME, you would go to the checkride with 25 hours of AMEL Flight Time logged plus 25 hours of AMEL sim logged in your book and on the 8710.
To make it even more confusing... there is a definition of "Pilot Time" in 61.1 which includes sim/FTD time and ALSO dual given in a sim/FTD.
Further point of confusion: There is no FAR definition of "Total Time". Left undefined, you might make a case that "Pilot Time" can be counted as "Total Time". Now to really blow your mind: Pilot Time includes sim dual given! So now we're back to where we started, and maybe you can make a case that sim dual given, while not specifically allowed, is also not specifically prohibited towards the ATP TT requirement. But I personally would not try it because it would confuse employers and examiners. Maybe there's an FAA legal interp. on that.
For most pilots, what we log as "Total Time" is really "Flight Time". Best to keep any "Pilot Time" in separate columns. Most employers don't want non-airplane time mixed up in your total time.
This aspect of the regs is a poop-show, and I'm sorry for subjecting you to it. I'll buy you a beer if we ever meet.
Sounds right. Kind of like how you can log night landings towards the night hour requirement for ATP, but can't log additional night hours just because you did some night landings.
06-21-2020, 07:44 AM
#19
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Originally Posted by toolowgoaround
Sounds right. Kind of like how you can log night landings towards the night hour requirement for ATP, but can't log additional night hours just because you did some night landings.
More than a few people screw that up, which can result in a rescheduled checkride so they can fix their logs.
06-21-2020, 09:54 AM
#20
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Joined APC: Sep 2016
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Originally Posted by rickair7777
It's fun to discuss the nuances of the regulatory language.
But the real-world right answer is pretty easy: employers do not expect to see sim dual given towards ATP mins.
But the real-world right answer is pretty easy: employers do not expect to see sim dual given towards ATP mins.
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