Jet University
09-18-2007, 07:23 AM
#11
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Position: Left
Posts: 325
God help the poor captains that have to fly with these 200 hour pilots. can you say single pilot RJ captain. At 200 hours you may be able to manipulate the controls reasonably well but thats probably it, throw in busy ATC frequencies, bad weather and most anything else and the level of safety goes way down. I will not put my family on one of these flights. Go flight instruct for a couple hundred hours and then go fly an RJ, you will be so much more competent and safe plus you can fall back on your CFI certificate if the industry takes a dump. Without it you will not be very marketable without hardly any PIC time. Just my two cents.
09-18-2007, 07:25 AM
#12
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: DC9 Flap Operator
Posts: 172
194TT and 5ME?!? That person is going to take double or maybe triple the required time to upgrade.
09-18-2007, 07:27 AM
#13
Line Holder
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Position: New Hire
Posts: 33
What specifically would you like to know other than what I told you? Guys get jobs out of there and evidently the airlines, at least some of them, think the training is good.
Again, I wasn't trying to defend or support, just pass on information. It would appear, though, that you, and many others, already have an opinion.
CL65Driver, section 20 of the contract defines the refund policy for a successful "graduate". It provides additional training for free or 250 hours of turboprop/turbine time. If it gets to that, they told me they usually also offer your money back as that is usually less than buying you the flight time.
There seem to be two camps when discussing places like Jet U or Gulfstream, et al: those who think people should "earn" their hours rather than "pay" for them and those who want to use all available resources to get to their paid (granted, not well-paid) position with an airline. Feel free to discuss it amongst yourselves, but it is a waste of time. The airlines will hire and fire whomever they want, regardless of where they came from, and it isn't anyone's fault. The thing I notice most of all is that no one seems to be willing - or able - to compare working in a small cubicle in the real world versus a small cockpit at FL 340. I've been there and done that, and I can't believe how angry pilots are with each other. I'll take the cockpit any day.
Again, I wasn't trying to defend or support, just pass on information. It would appear, though, that you, and many others, already have an opinion.
CL65Driver, section 20 of the contract defines the refund policy for a successful "graduate". It provides additional training for free or 250 hours of turboprop/turbine time. If it gets to that, they told me they usually also offer your money back as that is usually less than buying you the flight time.
There seem to be two camps when discussing places like Jet U or Gulfstream, et al: those who think people should "earn" their hours rather than "pay" for them and those who want to use all available resources to get to their paid (granted, not well-paid) position with an airline. Feel free to discuss it amongst yourselves, but it is a waste of time. The airlines will hire and fire whomever they want, regardless of where they came from, and it isn't anyone's fault. The thing I notice most of all is that no one seems to be willing - or able - to compare working in a small cubicle in the real world versus a small cockpit at FL 340. I've been there and done that, and I can't believe how angry pilots are with each other. I'll take the cockpit any day.
09-18-2007, 07:35 AM
#14
Line Holder
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Position: New Hire
Posts: 33
Beagle Pilot, I will let you know how he does, but he has passed orals and is headed to the sim. I expect he will do just fine. Maybe the captains will have to work a little harder, I don't know, but that is what the OE is for.
Very experienced pilots still drive their perfectly good airplanes into the ground.
Very experienced pilots still drive their perfectly good airplanes into the ground.
09-18-2007, 07:52 AM
#15
Che Guevara
Joined APC: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,408
Flyboy8784 think of it like this. Many places that hire, I'm talking the big dogs like Legacy, Majors, Fractionals, all have total time requirements. Lets say they want 1500hrs PIC. If you're a CFI you'll get that in about a year. Then you can go somewhere to get a little jet experience then start sending your resumes out again to get that nice job for the rest of your life.
Now pretend you have 250hrs, of which about 175ish will be PIC. You can go to a regional, make $20k-50k, and will fly about 900+hrs a year. All this time will be sic. You'll be at that regional for a few years before you upgrade. Lets say 3-4 years possibly by the time you get there. Now you've spend all that time training and up to 4 years BEFORE you start logging more PIC. Now you need another year and a half to get to that 1500pic. That could be 5.5yrs you've been at a regional making crappy pay JUST to get to where the other guy already was who was a CFI for a year.
Yes there are different types of PIC. There is jet pic vs. piston and multi vs. prop. However it's still nice to have a little of it under your belt regardless of what it's in. I personally never wanted to fly at a regional. I wanted to stay cargo and just kind of ended up here. I don't plan on staying long. I had about 1900hrs total time when hired. Most of that was PIC. I've met the requirements at the places I plan on working at next in that aspect. Now I'm sitting right seat getting my jet and 121 experience in. Withing exactly two years I have gone from 360hrs to just over 2200hrs of flight time. I have roughly 1800hrs pic and 350ish jet time. I'm getting 75-80hrs a month in the jet easily so one day when I hit 2500hrs I can start sending out resumes again. Obviously I know I might not hear from anyone for a while but I can still get them out there and then keep them updated.
The main thing is where will you be when the music stops? You have a commercial rating but no real flight time and experience yet. What if PIN stops what's going on? It's happened before. Go over to flight info and read about guys that were in the CAP(?) program. Some of them really got screwed with their pants on in that deal. If you are going to start go get your CFI. Places like ALL ATP can shotgun you through even though I don't think that route gives the best quality of learning. There are also places like american fliers too. A CFI ticket will give you something to use in the event the regional stops what they are doing. Also it was one of the most rewarding things I've ever done. I hated the idea of having to do it and absolutely loved it. I met more people and flew more aircraft because of it. It also allowed me to get my times to a more competitive position for the regionals as well as my future goals. The quickest route now isn't always the fastest or best in the long run.
Disclaimer: I'm not responsible for the poor quality of this message. You can blame the ASA crew from last night for that.
Now pretend you have 250hrs, of which about 175ish will be PIC. You can go to a regional, make $20k-50k, and will fly about 900+hrs a year. All this time will be sic. You'll be at that regional for a few years before you upgrade. Lets say 3-4 years possibly by the time you get there. Now you've spend all that time training and up to 4 years BEFORE you start logging more PIC. Now you need another year and a half to get to that 1500pic. That could be 5.5yrs you've been at a regional making crappy pay JUST to get to where the other guy already was who was a CFI for a year.
Yes there are different types of PIC. There is jet pic vs. piston and multi vs. prop. However it's still nice to have a little of it under your belt regardless of what it's in. I personally never wanted to fly at a regional. I wanted to stay cargo and just kind of ended up here. I don't plan on staying long. I had about 1900hrs total time when hired. Most of that was PIC. I've met the requirements at the places I plan on working at next in that aspect. Now I'm sitting right seat getting my jet and 121 experience in. Withing exactly two years I have gone from 360hrs to just over 2200hrs of flight time. I have roughly 1800hrs pic and 350ish jet time. I'm getting 75-80hrs a month in the jet easily so one day when I hit 2500hrs I can start sending out resumes again. Obviously I know I might not hear from anyone for a while but I can still get them out there and then keep them updated.
The main thing is where will you be when the music stops? You have a commercial rating but no real flight time and experience yet. What if PIN stops what's going on? It's happened before. Go over to flight info and read about guys that were in the CAP(?) program. Some of them really got screwed with their pants on in that deal. If you are going to start go get your CFI. Places like ALL ATP can shotgun you through even though I don't think that route gives the best quality of learning. There are also places like american fliers too. A CFI ticket will give you something to use in the event the regional stops what they are doing. Also it was one of the most rewarding things I've ever done. I hated the idea of having to do it and absolutely loved it. I met more people and flew more aircraft because of it. It also allowed me to get my times to a more competitive position for the regionals as well as my future goals. The quickest route now isn't always the fastest or best in the long run.
Disclaimer: I'm not responsible for the poor quality of this message. You can blame the ASA crew from last night for that.
09-18-2007, 08:24 AM
#16
Freightmama!
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: 757/767 FO
Posts: 2,880
Originally Posted by Flyboy8784
Then again i guess with any kind of jet experience nowadays, you can get a job.
Thoughts?????
Thoughts?????
Uh, you can get a job with 172 experience nowadays.
09-18-2007, 08:28 AM
#17
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: Right Seat
Posts: 1,458
Originally Posted by ToiletDuck
Now pretend you have 250hrs, of which about 175ish will be PIC. You can go to a regional, make $20k-50k, and will fly about 900+hrs a year. All this time will be sic. You'll be at that regional for a few years before you upgrade. Lets say 3-4 years possibly by the time you get there. Now you've spend all that time training and up to 4 years BEFORE you start logging more PIC. Now you need another year and a half to get to that 1500pic. That could be 5.5yrs you've been at a regional making crappy pay JUST to get to where the other guy already was who was a CFI for a year.
Even then, they couldn't upgrade because an ATP requires 250 PIC. So they are either going to be career FO's or paying to rent to get the time. Stupid.
09-18-2007, 08:29 AM
#18
Freightmama!
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: 757/767 FO
Posts: 2,880
Whoa! I'm speechless. You sound like the Aviation program director at the university that told me to change my nursing major to aviation because a nursing degree "may actually hurt me in getting an airline job". Well, I thought the guy was full of it so I stayed in nursing and I work at UPS now.
Not to be rude, but you have one or two good points but for the most part, "whoa" is all I have to say.
Not to be rude, but you have one or two good points but for the most part, "whoa" is all I have to say.
Originally Posted by BigWammerJammer
Before anyone says "Run away", consider this: A guy with 194TT and about 5 ME got hired by Pinnacle out of Jet U (disclaimer - I went to Jet U and got hired by PSA).
Do you need to get your CFI? - No
Is it expensive? - Yes
Will you get a job? - So far, 100% yes
Will you be flying a CRJ in about 4 months instead of a C-172? - Yes
Costs $27,000 (last I heard), not $50,000
ATP Written at 80% or better is required for interviewing with Pinnacle, so you will have that done and out of the way
The word I got is that Jet U is less tied to Pinnacle than it was just a few months ago, but that is rumor. A couple of us went to PSA and others are looking at Air Wisconsin. There is (was?) no requirement to interview with Pinnacle, but it was very easy since Pinnacle came out to Jet U to conduct interviews. If you want to go somewhere other than Pinnacle, Jet U will make an introduction and do what they can to get you an interview.
Jet U wasn't airline nirvana, and there were some very frustrating/maddening times for me but, in the end, I started in March and will be flying CRJs in November (I could be flying them now but took some time for family reasons).
The best suggestion I can make is this: What do you want to be doing in 6 months from now, and what are you willing to pay to do it? Yes, CFI'ing pays as much or more than 1st year FO'ing, but you'll be losing seniority every day you are not in the system and there is some value in that.
It is not my intent to defend or support Jet U or any other school like it. Just weigh where you are right now and what it will take to get where you want to be.
Finally, for those who tell you that you can get on with very few hours and not go to a school, I got on with fairly low hours, but a guy with an A&P and about 500 hours did not, nor did a CFI with over 600 hours. Another friend has actual Challenger time and is a CFII/MEI and still did not get hired (no, she is not a goon and hopefully she's been hired by now). When you get done with these schools, you will have up to 80 hours in a CRJ FTD or Sim, and that has a lot of value to the airlines. Getting hired off the street from these airlines is not as easy as it appears when you have competition from people who go to these schools or are coming from other airlines because they don't want to commute anymore.
That's what I would tell your friends.
Do you need to get your CFI? - No
Is it expensive? - Yes
Will you get a job? - So far, 100% yes
Will you be flying a CRJ in about 4 months instead of a C-172? - Yes
Costs $27,000 (last I heard), not $50,000
ATP Written at 80% or better is required for interviewing with Pinnacle, so you will have that done and out of the way
The word I got is that Jet U is less tied to Pinnacle than it was just a few months ago, but that is rumor. A couple of us went to PSA and others are looking at Air Wisconsin. There is (was?) no requirement to interview with Pinnacle, but it was very easy since Pinnacle came out to Jet U to conduct interviews. If you want to go somewhere other than Pinnacle, Jet U will make an introduction and do what they can to get you an interview.
Jet U wasn't airline nirvana, and there were some very frustrating/maddening times for me but, in the end, I started in March and will be flying CRJs in November (I could be flying them now but took some time for family reasons).
The best suggestion I can make is this: What do you want to be doing in 6 months from now, and what are you willing to pay to do it? Yes, CFI'ing pays as much or more than 1st year FO'ing, but you'll be losing seniority every day you are not in the system and there is some value in that.
It is not my intent to defend or support Jet U or any other school like it. Just weigh where you are right now and what it will take to get where you want to be.
Finally, for those who tell you that you can get on with very few hours and not go to a school, I got on with fairly low hours, but a guy with an A&P and about 500 hours did not, nor did a CFI with over 600 hours. Another friend has actual Challenger time and is a CFII/MEI and still did not get hired (no, she is not a goon and hopefully she's been hired by now). When you get done with these schools, you will have up to 80 hours in a CRJ FTD or Sim, and that has a lot of value to the airlines. Getting hired off the street from these airlines is not as easy as it appears when you have competition from people who go to these schools or are coming from other airlines because they don't want to commute anymore.
That's what I would tell your friends.
09-18-2007, 08:31 AM
#19
Freightmama!
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Position: 757/767 FO
Posts: 2,880
Originally Posted by BigWammerJammer
Bottom line - Jet U gets you a job or they give you your money back. Even if you don't get hired, how can all that experience really be a waste of time?
That's scary right there. I'm glad I'm not a captain at the regionals anymore.
09-18-2007, 08:39 AM
#20
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Spartan
Posts: 3,652
Originally Posted by Freightpuppy
That's scary right there. I'm glad I'm not a captain at the regionals anymore.
I don't even want to ride in the back of one anymore...
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