BigWammerJammer

de727ups - As a moderator, it is clear to me that you need to hold yourself to a "higher personal level". I am not alone in my accomplishments in life, but I feel that seven years in the Army, a number of years serving people with Developmental Disablities, Juvenile Delinquents, Mentally Ill, struggling people, and more, very likely puts me at as high a personal level as you, if not higher. I have served my country and my countrymen. Have you?

Your post is insulting and presumptive and it represents the 90% of bitter pilots who use this forum to whine about having what is likely the greatest possible job anyone can get. Almost everyone on this forum complains about low pay and PFT. GET OVER IT! This is the way it is and will be in the future. In 5th grade economics/social studies, you should have learned that a job is an agreement to provide service for pay. By accepting your paycheck you agree to the terms of the transaction. If you don't like the pay, speak with your feet and leave. Stop whining and do something about it. I can guarantee you that this forum will not increase your paycheck.

Talking about personal levels, are you a pilot that has cleaned and pressed shirts? How about your tie - any food stains? Do you wear your hat properly? Do you even wear it at all? If you do, I am sincerely appreciative because it is the public perception of all of us that is driving pay rates down. How many times have you walked through a terminal and seen "professional" pilots wearing Dockers and a yellow, wrinkled shirt? How about hats that are pitched back and look like some kind of gangsta? Got news for you...the flying public sees that, too. And they care more than we seem to. How do you justify a six-figure salary for a slob? I can't.

When was the last time someone posted anything resembling encouragement to the new pilots? Whatever happened to comaraderie? Does anyone understand that the "management" is very happy to have us bickering amongst ourselves? That way we can't bicker at them. Good going, guys.

I went to Jet U and my parents did not pay for it. I did. I earned the money and I chose how to spend it. The arrogance of some of you guys is astounding. Just because you haven't yet developed the skill sets necessary to earn "big" money doesn't mean anyone else has to wait behind you until you do. Doesn't work that way. If you want to make money, you go and earn it. Don't wish for it and don't wish that others who have it didn't.

There is a Real, Big World out there and some of you obviously have not discovered it yet. It is full of competition and people who will take your job away from you because they want it more than you do, and flying airplanes is no exception. Want to make good money? Go work for GM...oops, they've cut their workforce by almost 50% in the last decade or two. Okay, how about construction...new home starts are the lowest in more than 12 years and values are falling fast. McDonalds is hiring.

Get your heads out of your fourth point of contact and look around you. We are supposed to be a team. When I am a Captain, I will welcome you on to my plane. Will you welcome me on to yours?

Ewfflyer

The above post obviously is written in haste of defense. I agree that PFT's are the quick and easy, and possibly least respectful of the means to get ahead. You guys are any employers dream, you'll accept substandard pay and conditions just to "fly that jet!!!" Seriously think about it. I guess you're right, people should be worried that pilots like Big Wammer are willing to step up, undercut, and provide the same service for so much less. These aren't your local city-bus. It's an airplane, people work hard, learn lessons, get the experience, to safely operate these multi-million dollar aircraft full of people to get them where they want to go. Don't undercut your own self Big Wammer, you are worth more than you give yourself credit for.

BigWammerJammer

Ewfflyer, given the tone that these threads take when PFT (or supposed PFT) becomes the subject, I feel I need to state that I have a real question and am not attempting to deride or insult anyone.

Here it goes: The point I seem to get from all the back-and-forth is that I should go CFI, "earn" 1500 or so hours and then go to a Regional and get paid the same crappy wages wages that a PFT would earn. I am new to this industry, but I don't see how I can jump straight into a well-paying seat. The wages are what they are. I can remember way back when you couldn't even get a job, let alone one that pays badly. I know guys from Eastern who striked (don't know if that is a word, but sounds better than "struck) themselves out of jobs and an airline. Then Pan Am, et al.

This has been going on for a long time, and it doesn't seem to make sense to me to spend more time in 172's, Seneca's and Baron's when I can spend it in a CRJ. Just like being a CFI, my $27K and the resulting low wages are a trade for jet experience and the companies are happy to make that exchange. I won't argue that a CFI learns his/her trade by teaching, but, in truth, it seems to me that the CFI's best advantage is that someone else pays for their hours. Again, I don't mean to insult. I almost went the CFI route and would be dishonest if I said that I didn't see it that way.

Rather than all this bickering, I would like a coherent argument - other than cut off the supply of pilots which would include CFI's, not just PFT's - that would show the path to higher salaries that pilots deserve.

I am fully aware that $21/hour is not a living wage, but I don't buy into the argument that PFT's are causing the problem. I could be wrong about this, but the sense I have is that a lot of pilots have never done anything else and, thusly, have no reference point upon which to measure the profession and its wages. The fact is, almost every profession, job or occupation, requires an employee to "start at the bottom and work his/her way up." That shouldn't be news to anyone, but that seems to be the case. I don't expect to jump into the job at $75k, but I think I should be able to earn my way up to it, and I can.

If safety is the issue, then lets stick to that. Maybe there is a point to all of that and maybe it is worth discussion, but to my knowledge, no JetU guys have ever been in a crash but plenty of well-trained CFI's have. There are many assumptions being made about PFT's, but no facts are ever presented. The two guys from PCL who drove their -200 into the ground were not from Jet U. The list of mistakes they made takes up a lot of paper, but they got into the cockpit of the CRJ the traditional way: CFI, Gulfstream, etc. There are more examples against the "traditional" way than there are for it. Time will tell though. I'm sure a lot of people are watching for the first Jet U crash. Hopefully those same people aren't "hoping" for it to prove their point.

At the end of the day, looking at PFT as a safety issue may be valid but I have yet to see a quantifiable argument to support it presented in these forums. Blaming them for low wages is not a reasonable argument. As best as I can tell, all those guys who hate the PFT's are accepting substandard pay, too. Like I said in my previous post; its their choice, they don't have to.

Slice

Seriously man, lay off the Kool-Aid! It's not just about 'paying dues'. It's about having a guy in the seat next to you knowing wtf is going on. With <1000 hours you truly don't know enough about flying to occupy a seat in an RJ and be able to handle anything thrown your way or fallback on previous experience when things don't go according to plan, sim profile, or the answer isn't in the FAR/AIM. You may be a **** hot 300 hour pilot...but you're still a 300 hour pilot. You are singing the party line of the low timer. Those of us that have btdt know a little more than you. It's like thinking the sex you have at 17 was awesome...you get older and realize you were basically clueless.

withthatsaid182

I didn't like those JET U ads in the flight training magazines. It shows the picture of the C152, B1900 and RJ and compares speeds, altitudes and positions or something like that.

That's great, so when my student who flies the 152 opens that up and sees that he feels like he isn't a "real pilot".

The magazines who actually publish this **** me off just as much as JET U for making something like that.

I think people shouldnt be so quick to jump to their silver bird.

BigWammerJammer

I am serious. Tell me how a guy who has spent 1500 hours in the right seat of a 172 and a Seminole knows more about a CRJ than someone who has been immersed in it for 4 months. I will grant him radio experience, but he better not have more icing experience because those planes aren't certified for it. If he does have icing experience, I would question his decision-making skills for flying into it.

I do not deny greater experience from being a CFI - I also don't include those who drove night cargo in this discussion - but it is the application of this experience that I question. He is going to get 4 weeks of ground school and about 12 sim sessions and then fly a CRJ. I have 4 months of aerodynamics, systems and FTD/MD-80 full motion sim. I know the CRJ inside and out and will know it better than any of the guys who come out of the right seat of a 172.

Again, back up your claim that a 1500 hour pilot of singles and light twins is a better pilot of a CRJ than someone who has gone through a dedicated school. The people who trained us are far more skilled than just about anyone on this forum and they trained us to very high standards and wouldn't let us go if they didn't think we can fly safely.

As a quick historical example, the horse and buggy was a reliable and well tested mode of transportation. The car came along and very few people believed in it. Can you name any horse and buggy companies that are in business now? The industry is changing and the methods of training are changing with it. Your argument that I can't be a good CRJ pilot because I don't have a ton of 172 time is not an argument: it is an assumption. A lot of guys who follow the advice of the traditionalists may get left behind and not get job because they listended to you.

In the end, airlines are hiring EVERY Jet U graduate. All of them. Right now, I am thinking I did the right thing, otherwise, instead of going to class on 10/1, I would be going to the local FBO to teach yet another newbie how to conduct a pre-flight inspection, and I just don't have time for that.

Flyboy8787 - have your friends read this thread and choose for themselves. That should answer the original question.

CL65driver

Maybe there is no one right or wrong way to make it into an airline job. But you can't argue with experience. A 300 hour pilot really has no business taking 50 people's lives and his company's reputation in his hands. And, BigWammer- I totally understand where you're coming from. When I was a 300 hour CFI, I would have sold my left nut to fly an RJ. But as you gain more experience, you start to realize how woefully unprepared you were. I look back nowadays, and still think I wasn't ready for my first airline gig- even with 1600TT, an ATP and 121 Dispatcher experience.

Get back to us when you've got 2000 hours...

Anyone can fly a plane, anyone can throw switches and run flows....

But CRJ sim and systems classes don't provide you with the ability to make fully informed command decisions in a 121 environment.... that only comes with experience.

BigWammerJammer

CL65driver, thanks for the respectful response. I will not deny that my pucker-factor will be higher than my filed altitude when I begin my first take-off.

Maybe I will get back to you in 2000 hours...

de727ups

"get there without enjoying the process or taking into consideration the gravity of what the job entails and the value of true experience before taking the next step."

Agreed. I think "enjoying the process" should be optional. To each his own. But "taking into consideration the gravity of what the job entails" is something the new breed of low time guys aren't doing. Nor do they understand "the value of true experience before taking the next step".

It's really not their fault, though. The airlines are getting what they want. Cheap, min standard, bodies, to fill a seat. Who can blame them?

de727ups

"de727ups - As a moderator, it is clear to me that you need to hold yourself to a "higher personal level"."

Do you think moderators should never post but only moderate? Some guys think that. They never told me when I signed up to be a moderator I couldn't express my opinion. If you ever have a problem with any post at this site, feel free to report it. That's how the site self moderates.

"I have served my country and my countrymen. Have you?"

I've paid 58K in federal income taxes so far this year and work with kids in my spare time. There are many ways serve...

"Almost everyone on this forum complains about low pay and PFT. GET OVER IT!"

Not likey. You simply don't have enough experience in the industry to understand why the masses at this site disagree with you and yours.

This is the same discussion that's been going on since Gulfstream started years and years ago. "Why is a 1500 hour CFI a better pilot than a 300 hour PFJ grad". Well, cause he has a more well rounded background, more seasoning, and just flat out more time in the air. There is no substitute for experience in this biz.