Jet University
09-19-2007 | 12:27 PM
#71
Line Holder
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
From: New Hire
de727ups - One last thing. I just read your posting on jetcareers.com and you seem like a pretty good guy. What's with the angst against PFT guys? I would have expected something more positive given all the volunteer work you do.
09-19-2007 | 12:45 PM
#72
APC co-founder
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,853
Likes: 0
From: B777
I can't speak for de727ups, although I don't think the criticism is personalized with respect to the PFT programs. Many of the comments come across as cynical because of the huge difference between the distorted view presented by those who are trying make a buck of training and the reality of the industry.
Programs like Jet U, ATP, and others will tell you that you too can fly a jet in mere months - which may be true but at a HUGE cost relative to the salary. If I could offer a bit of advice, take the comments in this thread (the ones from working airline pilots) as the disclosure that you'll never ever get from a pilot mill.
The two strong points I think should be considered are:
1) Cost. Learning to fly is expensive and there are many many users on this board who have leveraged the training with debt that is VERY difficult service at starting airline pay. Consider the cost over the life of the loan, the cost of lost opportunity while pay comes to parity, and the limited opportunity for advancement in the current climate, and you should see that life as a regional FO is challenging at best. Remember, the industry is clamoring for entry level positions - that's no guarantee of advancement. So many guys have hung it all out financially that a strike, furlough, or cession of operations would be catastrophic. Again these are generalizations, but I hope you can understand the cynicism.
2) Safety. As a 250 hour pilot, "you don't know what you don't know." Sure you can train to pass a light, switch, checklist style check ride, but low experience pilots don't have background to be a fully qualified and productive crewmember in a 121 operation. I feel for the regional Capt's who will fly single pilot in way to many scenarios while the new FO builds experience. This is a huge source of resentment for a lot guys, it's not personal, but the FAA and airlines are dumping a HUGE extra workload on Capts.
09-19-2007 | 02:43 PM
#73
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 737
Likes: 0
From: ERJ 170
For all you guys thinking of going the PFT route, the only think I ask is when you get to the right seat of that jet, LISTEN to the person in the left seat. They have the expierence. Do not take it personally when they tell you something you are doing wrong. Learn. LISTEN AND LEARN. Be a sponge.
09-19-2007 | 08:35 PM
#75
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 501
Likes: 0
From: C152
I seem to recall several people (Or small groups of people) that have recently brought about a huge debate on the legality of taxes. One married couple went so far as to barricade themselves in their home away from the Feds to try and prove their point. This, alas, is a topic for a completely different thread but an entirely interesting story in its own right.
09-19-2007 | 11:02 PM
#77
Cloudbase
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 565
Likes: 28
From: 717A
I am serious. Tell me how a guy who has spent 1500 hours in the right seat of a 172 and a Seminole knows more about a CRJ than someone who has been immersed in it for 4 months. I will grant him radio experience, but he better not have more icing experience because those planes aren't certified for it. If he does have icing experience, I would question his decision-making skills for flying into it.
I do not deny greater experience from being a CFI - I also don't include those who drove night cargo in this discussion - but it is the application of this experience that I question. He is going to get 4 weeks of ground school and about 12 sim sessions and then fly a CRJ. I have 4 months of aerodynamics, systems and FTD/MD-80 full motion sim. I know the CRJ inside and out and will know it better than any of the guys who come out of the right seat of a 172.
Again, back up your claim that a 1500 hour pilot of singles and light twins is a better pilot of a CRJ than someone who has gone through a dedicated school. The people who trained us are far more skilled than just about anyone on this forum and they trained us to very high standards and wouldn't let us go if they didn't think we can fly safely.
As a quick historical example, the horse and buggy was a reliable and well tested mode of transportation. The car came along and very few people believed in it. Can you name any horse and buggy companies that are in business now? The industry is changing and the methods of training are changing with it. Your argument that I can't be a good CRJ pilot because I don't have a ton of 172 time is not an argument: it is an assumption. A lot of guys who follow the advice of the traditionalists may get left behind and not get job because they listended to you.
In the end, airlines are hiring EVERY Jet U graduate. All of them. Right now, I am thinking I did the right thing, otherwise, instead of going to class on 10/1, I would be going to the local FBO to teach yet another newbie how to conduct a pre-flight inspection, and I just don't have time for that.
Flyboy8787 - have your friends read this thread and choose for themselves. That should answer the original question.
I do not deny greater experience from being a CFI - I also don't include those who drove night cargo in this discussion - but it is the application of this experience that I question. He is going to get 4 weeks of ground school and about 12 sim sessions and then fly a CRJ. I have 4 months of aerodynamics, systems and FTD/MD-80 full motion sim. I know the CRJ inside and out and will know it better than any of the guys who come out of the right seat of a 172.
Again, back up your claim that a 1500 hour pilot of singles and light twins is a better pilot of a CRJ than someone who has gone through a dedicated school. The people who trained us are far more skilled than just about anyone on this forum and they trained us to very high standards and wouldn't let us go if they didn't think we can fly safely.
As a quick historical example, the horse and buggy was a reliable and well tested mode of transportation. The car came along and very few people believed in it. Can you name any horse and buggy companies that are in business now? The industry is changing and the methods of training are changing with it. Your argument that I can't be a good CRJ pilot because I don't have a ton of 172 time is not an argument: it is an assumption. A lot of guys who follow the advice of the traditionalists may get left behind and not get job because they listended to you.
In the end, airlines are hiring EVERY Jet U graduate. All of them. Right now, I am thinking I did the right thing, otherwise, instead of going to class on 10/1, I would be going to the local FBO to teach yet another newbie how to conduct a pre-flight inspection, and I just don't have time for that.
Flyboy8787 - have your friends read this thread and choose for themselves. That should answer the original question.
09-19-2007 | 11:27 PM
#78
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 3,652
Likes: 0
From: Spartan
Bold statement given the depth of experience on this board including the founders who are living your 'dream' by flying for major airlines. Care to elaborate? Either way, no need to post here any further. You can ask your own sky god CFI's for all you need to know.
09-20-2007 | 04:23 AM
#80
Flying Farmer
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,160
Likes: 0
From: Turbo-props' and John Deere's
I think this goes back to the phrase "You don't know what you don't know." Ignorance really sums it up. In a few years or more, he'll hopefully see the light. It's really the view on one side of the fence to the other, and some people are trying to take the short cut of jumping over the fence, instead of having someone open up the gate to let them in when they are worthy.
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