And what's wrong with a month of IOE or 50-80 hours of IOE? Would you rather have someone qualified by the time they reach the line or have been pencil-whipped through? This ain' the military. Yes there is a washout process and some do get washed out on their first or second attempt. It happens.

So some places are getting the bottom of the barrel along with some very highly experienced but unlikely candidates. Look at the wages paid and the minimum hours, same with ATC. Neither is the career destination they used to be before 9/11, and even before that. Nor can one start off in cargo or 135 like they used to as the insurance company minimums are sky high.

Even then, with the ASAP and FOQA programs, look over your company's performance. There are very few almost perfect pilots in the bunch. FO's making mistakes while the CA's either don't correct or egg 'em on. CA's making mistakes that FO's can't get corrected. Crews making mistakes and hopefully everyone learning from them.

So look at your company's goal. Why was the person hired? Was the company looking for a seat filler? Were they looking for a future captain? Were they looking for someone that wasn't part of the 20% that fill the Chief Pilot's time and able to allow them some extra training time to keep 'em? Do they think the person might contribute something to the company other than just being a seat filler? Are they trying to fill a quota, and maybe not the one you are thinking of? Does someone above your pay grade have a bet they don't want to lose?

Someone not getting it the first time doesn't equal them needing to turn in their wings forever. An ATR doesn't mean the person is an automatic idiot and incapable of learning. It's the same thing for going beyond the minimum IOE time. Sometimes even highly experienced pilots have difficulties making it through the airline training process in minimum hours. Sometimes a freaking hurricane moves through the area which challenges even the check airmen! It happens for various reasons. Ya gotta start somewhere.

A captain is an instructor. Could you coach the FO at all? Or were you a flaming jerk in the left seat that would cause even Chuck Yeager to doubt himself? Do you take the steps your company provides to file FO effectiveness reports for both good trips and bad, i.e. give 'em a break, but not a big one? Is it time to become a check airman and thus get the override for dealing with FNGs? Or is it vacation time to stem off the burnout?

I personally think it sucks to be the FNG. However, the learning experience has more than made up for it.

Fly SAFE!

 

Wow, Jed. Rant over...

How is IOE going for you now? Did you finish? What about the crosswind landings?

 

So how did you do? You shouldn't be on here if you haven't finished your training!!! How are things going? We need to get your hired. Let me know if you need help.

 

Whats wrong? Its not a flight school, its AIRLINE training. 60hrs of IOE is way to much. Either they get it or they dont.

 

Thanks, I was waiting to get the results. Passed the eval and have my stage check on the 7th. There really isn't anything left that I don't understand now. Hopefully, this will be it. If not than at least I know I did my best.

 

well jed,

as it was explained to me by several of the IOE checkairmen, the problem is in liability. When it has traditionally taken a candidate 25-30 hrs to complete IOE and be found "competent" in the airplane (especially during the over-abundant times of qualified pilots...aka, if you can't do it, someone else out there can) it doesn't look good, or feel comfortable to have a candidate take double, or triple the amount of time to complete the SAME training. When said "new guy" is constantly having the controls taken from him/her by the captain, or when the captain is incapacitated and this "new guy" puts the plane half a mile short of the runway, off the edge in the gusty crosswinds, or off the other end during the snowstorm, the feds are gonna come looking back to who was the last checkairman to fly with and sign this guy off as "good to go" for line flying, and congrats, you've got yourself a liability issue @ hand.

 

Having gone through the whole 'who signed this guy off' mess, I've learned it is not just the last guy to sign someone off that gets an interview with the Feds after an accident or incident. Everyone gets time in the hot seat. Even folks that were not in the direct chain of command or training structure get to dance with the Feds. It depends on how many people were killed and how important they were as to how far outside the direct line the Feds search.

If you've ever been through a three letter government agency investigation and think it was bad, don't try a four letter government agency investigation. Those are far worse.

I do recognize that there is a limit to IOE and people well above my pay grade set that limit. Last year's standard new hire may have gone through in 30 hours. This year perhaps it is 40. Maybe at some places it has gone to 60. And that limit might change on a case-by-case basis. Now what? Of course my pay grade is somewhat below the stain in the carpet, so it doesn't say much. If you think the limit is too high, ya gotta talk to the ones that set it.

On hours, I don't know how many I've got. I know I'm trying to reach a certain time goal so should be paying close attention, but I'm not. As for being online, well, you gotta do something during long periods of time off or days off when you're not studying or trying to save the world.

What I am trying to state to other readers of this thread: "if the company hasn't given up on you, why are you giving up on yourself?"

 

i dont think 60 hours is too much for a person going into their first 121 job.

 

yeah it is, after training you should be done with no more than 25-30hrs..........................

 

Just a convenient jumping in point:

On the flip side, our FOM limits what F/O's are allowed to fly when released to the line and the F/O has less than 100 hours in the aircraft at our company. For example, the Captain (if not an OE or LCA) must make all take off's and landings if crosswind >15 knts, vis less than 3/4 mile, RVR < 4000, braking action less than "good", yada, yada, yada, follows with any condition CPT deems necessary to take the aircraft. Even after the 100 hour consolidation, when one or more of the conditions listed are present the "Captain will normally continue to perform the takeoff, approach, and landing" unless, the CPT "after careful evaluation of existing conditions, the CPT's knowledge of the F/O's experience and capabilities, potential complications..." determines the F/O can make the T/O, approach and landing.

Seems they are not thrown into the briarpatch, and are mentored into the job (and we are talking extraordinarily experienced F/O's who were Captains with, often, many thousands of hours of command experience.(like many here on this board) So I would consider the regional 121's thinking that they need to mentor the development of professional aircrews, especially ones F/O's taken so early in experience. Every Captain in every cockpit should be doing the same. I am all for washing out incompetence, but our profession is more like a medical doctor, and these new F/O's should be treated as 'in residence'.

So Saab, what does your FOM say? <g>