Washing out.
11-03-2007 | 07:01 AM
#101
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From: 7ER B...whatever that means.
I think if I can brake down this one approach into a specific technique on how to hand fly it with the flight director on as guidance, I will finally solve the last piece to my training puzzle. The approach is the Houston, Texas ILS/Loc Rwy 27 Jepp 71-7. I am only choosing this one as an example. Getting down from the DME fixes Dento, Festa, Redoc, MDA… I have been using alt hold, selecting the next altitude and then adjusting my power for my airspeed. Today I was told to use speed hold and then adjust my power for altitude. What would you all use? The speed hold seemed to work better for me until I got down to my MDA and then plane was configured with flaps 45 and gear down. Any suggestions or techniques would be much appreciated. 
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11-03-2007 | 07:01 AM
#102
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From: A-320
If they told you to use speed hold then they are smoking something or don't fly in real weather any. On a nice smooth day it's all dandy but get in gusting and turbulent conditions speed hold will be tossing people out of their chairs. Personally I use verticle speed mode and look at my ground speed then adjust. Remember PITCH for airspeed and POWER for altitude.
if you dont like it, adjust it or TCS it until you find a V/S you like. The only time I use Speed mode is a climb out, if its smooth, or I hit it when spoilers open and speed is 245 in a decent, it will give you the best rate!! (FYI-- do this and as soon as the ASEL becomes boxed close the spoilers quickly and give the thrust levers a quick bump about half way up then back to idle, the airplane levels itself super smoothly 
11-03-2007 | 03:24 PM
#103
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Thanks! I agree. VS is the better method. Now I know they tell us not to focus on power settings but does anyone have some "suggested" power settings? Remember my PC is in the box not a real plane where density alt or weight really have that much affect.
clean at level flight: 60-55% n2?
level at 180 flaps 9:
1500fpm descent at 180 flaps 9
1500fpm descent slowing to 140 flaps 22 gear down
1500fpm descent at 140 flaps 45 gear down
level at target (135 or so) flaps 45 gear down: 75% n2?
I have been trying my best to catch up but may only have one more shot at this. I am doing my best here to chair fly these approaches so any suggestions or help would be great!
BTW, the PM is clear now
clean at level flight: 60-55% n2?
level at 180 flaps 9:
1500fpm descent at 180 flaps 9
1500fpm descent slowing to 140 flaps 22 gear down
1500fpm descent at 140 flaps 45 gear down
level at target (135 or so) flaps 45 gear down: 75% n2?
I have been trying my best to catch up but may only have one more shot at this. I am doing my best here to chair fly these approaches so any suggestions or help would be great!
BTW, the PM is clear now
11-03-2007 | 03:38 PM
#104
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One technique that works in any aircraft is a CRM technique for any non precision approach.
The challenge is one of scan. Where to look, etc. I find teaching that most pilots naturally follow all company required calls. It gets pretty quite though below MDA. Try this, have the PM give you a "speed +/-, sinking xxx" Example:
"400ft, +5, sink 850" "300 ft, Minus 8, sink 1000" Do you think you would know what you are doing? What you need to correct? Nice to have the extra data to go along with whatever company/aircraft procedure /technique you are supplied.
How about this, "400 ft, minus 5, sink 300" Probably holding the nose up and not on a proper glidepath. Or, "400 ft, onspeed, sink 750" might be the correct glidepath for your speed, etc. Anyway, this is a suggestion to more fully utilize the PM while you struggle on a non precision approach at MDA and below. It effectively leverages the other pilots scan and gives you useful info when you have a split scan between flight instruments and the runway environment and allows you to make effective corrections..
The challenge is one of scan. Where to look, etc. I find teaching that most pilots naturally follow all company required calls. It gets pretty quite though below MDA. Try this, have the PM give you a "speed +/-, sinking xxx" Example:
"400ft, +5, sink 850" "300 ft, Minus 8, sink 1000" Do you think you would know what you are doing? What you need to correct? Nice to have the extra data to go along with whatever company/aircraft procedure /technique you are supplied.
How about this, "400 ft, minus 5, sink 300" Probably holding the nose up and not on a proper glidepath. Or, "400 ft, onspeed, sink 750" might be the correct glidepath for your speed, etc. Anyway, this is a suggestion to more fully utilize the PM while you struggle on a non precision approach at MDA and below. It effectively leverages the other pilots scan and gives you useful info when you have a split scan between flight instruments and the runway environment and allows you to make effective corrections..
Thanks, but you can't use your partner that way. Plus what if they "miss or forget" a call ;P My partner will be the check aiman. The only thing he's going to tell me is pass or fail.
11-03-2007 | 03:45 PM
#105
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I purposely avoided this thread for a long time, never opened it until a half hour ago and read the whole thing in one sitting. As a GA pilot about to make the jump to 121, I just didn't want to read about "washing out." At this point, the thread deserves a new title, like "hanging tough." From what I gather, you've pulled yourself back in the running and it's looking good. Congratulations.
Av8r, thank you for opening your heart and soul to us - I'm not saying I don't like to cheer each time someone posts that they've passed an IOE or something, but when I go into class knowing that it's not a guaranteed pass, I'll sure take things more seriously. Also, knowing that you can be behind the 8 ball and still make it - that's a good bit to know as well.
Best of luck as life goes on!
J
Av8r, thank you for opening your heart and soul to us - I'm not saying I don't like to cheer each time someone posts that they've passed an IOE or something, but when I go into class knowing that it's not a guaranteed pass, I'll sure take things more seriously. Also, knowing that you can be behind the 8 ball and still make it - that's a good bit to know as well.
Best of luck as life goes on!
J
Thanks, it's true life does go on. Plus I know this will sound cheesy, but its not just about us. We have a large responibility to the passengers and crew in the back. I wouldn't want a loved one riding on a plane with a pilot who just squeeked by.
Go to training not just prepared mentally. Make sure your health, finances, familily, etc are in order. A good company like mine will work with you the best they can but there is only so much they can do. Don't think of it as a job offer but a continued interview and you will do fine.
11-03-2007 | 04:27 PM
#106
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Dude the best advice I can give on any check is talk talk talk.
"Slow correcting, fast correcting, out of this for that, clear this way or that" Get my meaning? As an instructor that is what I teach all the time and it seems to help. Perhaps you already do this, but since I don't know, thought I'd try to lend a hand.
Good luck.
"Slow correcting, fast correcting, out of this for that, clear this way or that" Get my meaning? As an instructor that is what I teach all the time and it seems to help. Perhaps you already do this, but since I don't know, thought I'd try to lend a hand.
Good luck.
11-03-2007 | 04:37 PM
#107
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Thanks, I have been told to do this when I get the sink rate message. I saw my partner doing the "correcting" throughout training but that only seemed to point out their errors. You could also tell how anxious they were by the tone of their voice. 
I am mostly concerned with jocking the thrust around chasing after airspeed. Takes away a lot of my concentration. I think general power settings to shoot for might help.
I am mostly concerned with jocking the thrust around chasing after airspeed. Takes away a lot of my concentration. I think general power settings to shoot for might help.
11-03-2007 | 05:20 PM
#108
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Thanks, I have been told to do this when I get the sink rate message. I saw my partner doing the "correcting" throughout training but that only seemed to point out their errors. You could also tell how anxious they were by the tone of their voice.
I am mostly concerned with jocking the thrust around chasing after airspeed. Takes away a lot of my concentration. I think general power settings to shoot for might help.
I am mostly concerned with jocking the thrust around chasing after airspeed. Takes away a lot of my concentration. I think general power settings to shoot for might help.
As far as talking goes, yeah it points out your errors, but more importantly it shows your SA that something is wrong, and it gives the evaluator the option to help you if you say something stupid. IE "descending to x altitude" when you should be going to y altitude. Get my drift?
Verbalize everything humanly possible, until it begins to distract yourself that is.
11-03-2007 | 07:05 PM
#109
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From: Leftof longitudinal
Hate to say it, the Safety folks need to educate the Checkairmen. Cripes , NASA would be fascinated with this neandrathal approach to safety/CRM in your training dept. I work in mine as well as the line with 20 years of mil/121 airline IP exposure. We have many required verbal requirments for safety. Industry standard actually. Oh well, sorry. Use it on the line though! It is smart CRM and what CPT would refuse? Hopefully none. Best of skill. You'll be fine.
Last edited by SaltyDog; 11-03-2007 at 07:13 PM.
11-04-2007 | 03:23 PM
#110
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Only one instructor told us that you can't use CRM. His idea was quickly shot down by the multiple check airmen that followed as the training is for FOs, not captains. "This is an FO check for pilots that are trying to learn CRM, thus, use the PM!"
The first limitation of this aircraft: Pilots: 2 Required.
The check airman for my FOPC was the type that stood two stories tall, walked on water, made tall buildings get out of his way, and you knew he regularly dictated policy to God, yet he made the callouts I requested, specifically the fix plus .2 DME calls on the non-precision approaches. All of the check airmen so far, even the ones considered to be tougher than the others, have been utmost professionals. I'd hire any of 'em in a second if they were to apply and I were hiring instructors again.
