ToiletDuck

For being non bias that's a little hard. A union can only follow the contract. Saying "The very organization/contract he fought against could have saved his career" isn't accurate if "Up an out" is part of the contract.

However as someone that's not a moderator I'd like to ask.... If you could do it all over again would you fight the joining of a union?

reelbigchair

I can't believe you're a mod, I don't post here much anymore, but I thought the mods held themselves to higher standards than us lowly RJ pilots. Don't kick a man when he's down. I'm fairly certain that cruel irony hasn't been lost on him, and being the guy in the background yelling, "I told you so!" is never cool.

Interesting side note, I'm a SkyWest pilot, and I can't stand this policy, HOWEVER, I would say a far greater number of pilots than I would've thought at SkyWest support this policy. That's especially true of our pilots that are in the left seat already. Sad but true.

TonyWilliams

Ya, I probably wouldn't expect much more from him, now, or in the future. No class.

I think it was already stated... whatever labor representation that we (ok, them!) have, if the collective bargaining labor contract says you're canned after failing an upgrade training event, guess what? You're still canned.



The grossly unscientific poll I saw on the SAPA forum was that 25% supported Up-n-Out. I suspect that out of that 25%, virtually all were captains who "already got their's". So, since the current SAPA board is 95% captains, I wouldn't think it would change. And the same would be true if it was a labor union, as I suspect the same thinking would prevail.

The policy is very clear, and well known at SkW. It adds a whole dimension of pressure that truly has to be lived to understand, which in part, I think, is why so many who have successfully upgraded, feel a bit smug about it.

In hindsight, of course, I would have been happy to stay in the jet. They canceled the new hire class, and had planned to walk in Monday morning to our upgrade class and cancel it, too. But they didn't. To my knowledge, that was the last class SkW ran.

TonyWilliams

I think SkyWest needs a union. When I ran for SAPA rep in SLC, I put it in my bio that I supported a union, since the former SAPA president, Mark, had just made a revelation (in court) that he supported ALPA. I also disclosed my role as a union rep when I was an air traffic controller.

I don't, however, and still don't think ALPA is the right tool for the job, which I also included in my bio then. My list of reasons are long, and well documented on this forum, so I won't repeat it here. With almost 3000 pilots, there is no reason that an in house union like SWAPA, APA, or USAPA (ok, maybe not the best example) couldn't flourish.

But, again, a union or no union doesn't by itself change any policy.

TonyWilliams

When I was contemplating bidding CA on the EMB, everybody in general seemed to think that was a good idea. Idle small talk, many had been in the EMB before the CRJ, said it was fun (for a while).

Then, after I accepted the bid, I seemed to regularly bump into people that would question, "you're going from FO CRJ to CA EMB ?"

When I said yes, almost universally, they would say, "you're gunna have your hands full".

I think JetJock said they had 28 total days, and he thought that was fast. I did 26 days from first day of class to failed sim ride.

I completed my fifth sim session (which started at 4am each day), and everything went pretty good. Not perfect by any measure, but I felt pretty good. The instructor signed me off, but wouldn't sign off my sim partner. I went right into the oral from that sim ride. When I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel (I was scheduled to actually fly the plane in three days), it all went down hill fast.

Actually, it was amazing how fast I went from hero to zero.

Oral started like this:

1. How long is the temporary airman certificate good for? I said 90 days, answer 120 (I think a temp aircraft registration is 90) WRONG

2. If you lost the temp certificate, what do you need from the company? I said some kind of letter or copy of certificate. WRONG, illegal to copy temp certificate, need exemption 5585.

3. If you flew 8 hours, what is normal rest? I said 9. WRONG. It's 10, 'cuz the rule is less than OR EQUAL TO 8 hours equals 10. 9 hour rest is for LESS THAN 8 hours.

4. What does the F stand for in ALSF-2 and the R in MALSR? I had no frigging idea. WRONG (flashing and runway)

5. When you get to DH on the ILS, and see the approach lights, how low can you descend? Me, "100 AGL". Ok, you see the red terminating bar, how low? I said continue the descent (word for word out of the reg). He says no, it's 50 feet (basically the landing threshold crossing height) until you see the runway lights/markings (except centerline lights).
Not sure I still buy off on that. Surely, you can't land, but I've never seen any altitude restriction, nor is there a callout for that, or training on that.

Anyway, the oral didn't go much further and he stopped it. I basically didn't get anything right. It kind ****ed me off, too, 'cuz we never really even talked about the f-ing airplane that I just spent the last 3 weeks learning.

I was so wound up, I couldn't get on my motorcycle to ride back to the hotel for about 3 hours. My sim partner, who didn't get signed off for the sim check ride, did his oral after me. He didn't get much of an oral at all. He said he just asked him a couple questions, and was on the phone the rest of the time rescheduling stuff.

I didn't sleep that night at all; I went over every memory thing I could think of that he would ask in the sim (it would be the same examiner that just failed me on the sim). At 6am, sure enough, right off the bat, he asked how to check the parking brake light. I had no idea. I looked after the fact, and could not find any place in any of the manuals that tells you it's push to test. (by the way, it says right on the lens "push to test"... one of those things that familiarity with the plane would have helped).

Anyway, I'll save y'all the gory details, but the sim ride was failed also. Strike two. Not signed off for retake, strike three.

Of the ten folks who signed up for the class, one didn't show (were told he got a job in Citation), one failed the written, passed on retake, and quit. Presumably, he thought he wouldn't complete training, and by quitting prior to FTD/Sim, it doesn't show up as a PRIA. He could actually just reapply, and get hired back on at SkyWest or anywhere... a wise move. And, of course, I failed.

My sim partner called and said he passed, and was on IOE.

Billy32

That is kinda screwed up. You go into an oral expecting aircraft questions. If they started with regs I would get thrown for a loop too. Kinda throws you off balance.

saab2000

That is exceedingly weak of the guy or the company policy. I don't know any details about what happened here in your instance but the only time our company has not allowed folks to resign was a couple of times when safety was deliberately compromised or there was malicious intent on the part of a pilot.

Just screwing up or being lazy or even a bit stupid allowed a chance at resignation.

Good luck in the future. There will be further chances. The job market sucks at the moment but when the feeding frenzy begins again you'll get another chance.

HercDriver130

Tony...... sorry to hear of your misfortune. As for the moderators comments, TOTALLY out of line.... he probably kicks cats for fun as well.

Just wanted to clarify my position from above. Your was a training issue, and certainly should have been allowed back to the right seat for some determined amount of time before upgrading again. My personal grief is with those FO's who either NEVER attempt an upgrade or if they do and have problems ...NEVER attempt an upgrade again. The example I used above is a person who has been with the company nearly 9 years and has failed upgrade once several years ago, and is afraid of upgrading at this point.

I will admit coming from a military flying background ( 80's and early 90's ) that when I went through UPT you had the constant pressure of passing each and every training event daily. A couple of unsat rides found you on the verge of elimination. And of course once I was out in the squadron you were EXPECTED to be ready for upgrade to the left seat at 800 hours in the airframe and about 1000 hours total time ( about two years back then ). If you werent ready you would get a LONG hard look. So I certainly can relate to the pressures you must have felt in training.

What was done to Tony is wrong, termination after a problematic upgrade, with no recourse. I still think all FO's should have to upgrade at some point... but that really is a slightly different animal.

Good Luck TW.

de727ups

The fact remains. If ALPA was at Skywest, it's likely the up or out policy would have been changed and TonyW would still work there. He was rabidly anti-ALPA on this site during the vote. Now he's going to make 7K a year in the right seat of an RJ. What's to feel sorry for?

"The grossly unscientific poll I saw on the SAPA forum was that 25% supported Up-n-Out. I suspect that out of that 25%, virtually all were captains who "already got their's"

Sounds like the other 75% would like to see it changed. What other ALPA airlines have an up or out policy? I think AA does but they aren't ALPA. Personally, I think it's a dumb policy. We have lifer F/O's at UPS. Some do it for the lifestyle and some just can't make the upgrade. Either way, it should be no big deal to stay as an F/O.

rickair7777

To clarify...

The SKW policy is not up-or-out. Nobody ever has to upgrade, and I know a guy who just retired out of the right seat.

The SKW policy is that if you attempt upgrade (always voluntarily), and fail three events, you are out. My understanding is that there is some flexibility on the three events, and that a good attitude will usually buy you some leeway.

Personally I don't agree with up-or-out, or the SKW policy. There are a variety of folks in the airline business with a variety of backgrounds... businessmen, retired senior military officers, etc.

Some folks have so much going on in their lives that they may not have the time to deal with upgrade, don't need the money, and cannot afford to wast time commuting to reserve in another domicile. I know a former aircraft carrier commander and a former submarine commander, neither of whom ever intend to upgrade. A retired O-6 collects more money sitting at home than most regional CA's make by going to work...and nobody can really question THEIR "commandability"

Also some older folks may have legit concerns about their ability to learn new tricks...especially if it's on a different airplane. Anyone with any significant CFI time knows that old folks almost invariably have a harder time learning and multi-tasking.

It's not like majors or the better regionals EVER have a shortage of those willing to upgrade. If that were a problem, then the companies would be justified in implementing an up-or-out policy...but it's simply not necessary.

Even if up-or-out WERE necessary, there is no reason whatsoever to fire someone who fails the first time...ANYBODY can have a bad day. Or family/spouse problems, personality clash, or possibly just an examiner who is out to get you for whatever reason.

The concept of "every FO should have to upgrade" is a falacy, especially coming from military guys. In the military, we have up-or-out, and yes it is very necessary to develop our furure leaders. I am a product of that system and won't argue with it. But the airlines are not about public service or character development...everyone is there to make money (including pilots).

There is no reason that a few FO's can't remain FO's if it suits them...if the airline gets short of captains, they can solve the problem like any staffing issue: Junior Assignment.