dn_wisconsin

I've got a story for you guys about the AA up or out policy. An fo I flew with at skyway got hired on at AA around 98 or 99. She was a side seater on the 727, 9/11 came and she was gone. When she was called back she spent 6 months sitting sideways on the 72 and was forced to upgrade to FO on the fokker 100. American allows you 6 months in your seat once someone junior to you upgrades then you have to. She went to class and made it all the way through to OE and got cut there. Now she was once a captain at Comair back in the day and flew single pilot night cargo before that. To make a long story short I don't really think it was fair to make her upgrade after not being at the controls for a few years. On top of that I'm sure alot of people on here making some of these comments are younger. Well in 20 years when you decide to switch aircraft and go back to class, I'd bet you'll have a harder time. Why do you think the older guys don't switch? Ya maybe schedules but no one ever wants to go back to class. Age does catch up with you and thats what happened to this fo. Never once was I worried about her in the right seat and she understood that she might not have the capability to sit in the left seat anymore.....she passed up captain upgrade on more than one occasion at skyway. Just my thoughts, not trying to prove someone wrong.

TonyWilliams

That's not Up-or-Out.

That's Up-Fail-get another chance at some point down the road, after the dust has settled.

In my case, Up-or-Out meant exactly that. I failed the training event, and the policy is clearly written out in SP-315... you're fired if it's an upgrade.

However, FO transistion to another airframe, or CA transistion.... No problemo.... you go back to your previous equipment, and even get another shot at it, IF YOU so desire. Not for an upgrade.

FO's at Southwest are flying the exact same equipment that they'll upgrade on. So, there's really two parts to the equation. Being successful as a captain, and checking out on the equipment.

Clearly, checking out on the B737 (or any plane) should be a no brainer, if you've been an FO on it (although, I'm confident there are failures). I attempted to checkout in a plane (actually, a whole type; turboprop) that I had never flown, and failed.

I never really got to the "captain" part of training, never flew the plane. Personally, I still think I would do quite well at it, and certainly I think I could have easily flown the CRJ from the left seat. But, I thought it would be "fun" to fly the EMB. It wasn't.

So, I have a PRIA entry, fired from a part 121 airline and pretty much black listed from getting a job at any US airline. With almost 4000 hours, I couldn't get an interview at CRJ operators that have been hiring (and I was still 90 day current in the CRJ until Oct 1, 2008).

Heck, try and get a job anywhere in this economy doing anything after you tell them you just got fired from your last (to them, "big time") job. I got a bill from SkyWest for $5 for shipping some documents.... with a threat for collection if I didn't pay on the very first bill. Treated like I imagine they might treat somebody who had been fired for stealing something, or drunk flying, or beating up flight attendants, or talking trash about the company.

JetJock16

I haven’t posted here in a long time, I’ve been reading but I’m sick of the animosity toward one another these threads can create so I took a little time off. I’ve also spent my time reading and pushing “Flying the Line” volume one and two on every pilot I’ve come across. I’m not pushing ALPA, just telling others that they need to understand where we came from and the sacrifices of others to gain what we now take for granted. FTL is a great history book written by a none-ALPA history professor. It’s amazing how much of the BS that occurred back in the day, when unions where weak and most were not unionized, actually goes on here. Yes SKW is a good (arguably great) regional but it’s still an airline with an Mgmnt group. Back in the day many airlines ended up on strike for reasons very similar to those that have lead to the termination of several pilots here at SKW. Now don’t get me wrong, it’s not often when a pilot is let go here but when it does happen there’s no one to back them up………….NO ONE.

As for the policy, it’s not like you fail an oral and you’re out, you need to fail three major portions usually multiple times (they just have to add up to three), basically it’s a three strike rule. Hell My Sim partner wasn’t good at NDB approaches, after the FAF he ended up almost 30 degrees off course and doing almost 2000 FPM, he passed because he recovered and made an excellent call going around. The second time it was a bit better but still a bust. He did not fail because of his attitude and judgment. Now I’m not going to tell you exactly what happen with TW but he did fail multiple portions. In Tony’s defense they expect us to go from day one of ground to type (on the EMB) in less than 30 days, my class did it in 28. When you’ve never flown the old switch b1tch that’s fast. Especially when you get less than a week of Sims before your sim ride/type ride.

On the same note, we at SKW are “at-will” employees which means that SKW can do almost as they please. I do not feel our “up or out” police is just seeing that our careers are too fragile and since you’ve proven yourself to be a very competent FO you should be allowed to return to that position with a seatlock and at least one more opportunity. Dave Behncke would roll over in his grave if he saw what goes on here at SKW with absolutely no response from the pilot group. It truly baffles me why we turn a blind eye to the suffereng of the few for our own selfish gain. I can honestly say that, although I like SKW, I look forward to moving on to DAL, SWA, UPS, FedEx or Net jets one day for many many reasons, one being unionized job insurance and the ability to back my fellow pilot without the fear of losing my job.

I do, in the back of my mind, fear spending the rest of my career with an airline that doesn’t value their employee’s futures. Although they say they do, this “up or out” policy *(as well as many others) show otherwise. Our careers are fragile and when we lose our job for a BS reason, we either have to change careers or go overseas, which is exactly where TW (to my knowledge) is headed. Good luck TW.

BTW, ALPA has a history of defending pilots even if they (ALPA) feel they should have been terminated. That’s what you get with your measly 1.95%.

Forget all the political crap, at-will is far more dangerous than being unionization.

Ps. Forgive the rambling and mistakes, it’s late and I’m exhausted. I’m sure I’ll end up editing this posting tomorrow.

belliott

TW.... first let me say that I am sorry to hear of your predicament.... I was under the impression that SKW valued their employees a little more than what I just read.
I personally think that an "up or out" policy is horse manure. If a person chooses to remain an FO for personal reasons I think that is perfectly acceptable. This (to me at least) validates the need for some sort of representation for each pilot group. I hope no one else (although very unlikely to actually happen) ever has to go through this sort of situation.
B

Seatownflyer

Pay it in pennies!

Dash8Pilot

There is no requirement that you must upgrade at SKW. If you wish to, you could fly for 20 years in the right seat. The requirement is that once you have bid for, been awarded, and started upgrade class, you must successfully complete the course or you are fired.

I think the policy should be abolished, but we all (or at least those that did our homework) accepted the job at SKW knowing that "up-or-out" was in place.

TonyWilliams

First, let me clarify that I wasn't forced to upgrade. I bid on it, and when the class date was offered, I accepted.

The policy is one shot at the training event. But, like JetJock had pointed out, you either have to fail something twice (written, FTD, sim, oral, practical, IOE, etc) or fail once on three individual things.

I did the latter. I failed the oral at noon Friday, and went in and failed the sim at 6am Saturday. They elected not to give me a second try at either, which in itself is a failure, and the third one for me.

By the way, I want to make it clear that the company did in fact follow the rule to the letter. That's exactly what is allowed.

So, I got a call the very next day after my training was stopped from the Training manager, and he simply said, "you failed three things in training, and I have to terminate your employment". I asked if I could reapply. No, I was banned for life. He didn't offer to let me quit either. Interestingly, the guy who fired me was never exposed to this rule. He hired on in 1981-ish, and the up-r-out rule came to SkW in 1989.

I gotta say, of course, that I made mistakes in training. That's legit. Could I have been "trained to succeed". Of course. Would it have made sense to send me back as an FO on the CRJ ? I'd say yes, but the current rules don't allow for that, unless you're in the good 'ole boy club, etc.

Rook

Way to man up TW. Good luck to you.

paxhauler85

Being a 121 PIC should be a cake walk compared to what these guys have done. I'm not saying these aren't excellent guys with amazing experience, but something about that doesnt add up to me.

For me, the choice to bid a position that would double my salary was an easy one.

Tony: I am sorry things didn't work out better for you. As someone above said, it takes courage to admit what happened to you. I don't think you have, but please don't interpret this thread as a public "flogging" of you. I brought "up and out" policies up for meaningful discussion (which it has provided, so far).

FWIW, I think you should have been allowed to keep your F/O job, and attempt an upgrade at somepoint in the future, especially on the CRJ. Good luck to you.

de727ups

"Way to man up TW. Good luck to you."

I'd have a hard time saying that seeing as how Tony was a SAPA rep and was rabidly anti-ALPA during his time as a Skywest crewmember. The very organization/contract he fought against could have saved his career at Skywest. Now, he's got a job in Yemen and he's looking here at APC for advice on checklists. You reap what you sow....

For the record. I think up or out is dumb. Anyone who fails training should get to go back to his last seat for a time. Unions help negotiate these sort of things.