Interesting Stall Information
02-14-2009 | 10:19 AM
#72
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From: A-320
Forces open the Valves for Anti-ice for wings/tail, basically telling the plane I don't care if you aren't detecting ICE, I want it on anyway 
On the ERJ it has little things on the sides of the Nose that vibrate, and when it picks up ice it stops vibrating, which tells the a/c it is icing up. The EMB-145XR has additional Clear Ice detection which is kind of nice.
If I remember on the SAAB it was certain Temps and visible Moisture we would just manually turn the ice on. In the ERJ you always know when the ICE Protections just turned on because you feel the pressure in your ears
On the ERJ it has little things on the sides of the Nose that vibrate, and when it picks up ice it stops vibrating, which tells the a/c it is icing up. The EMB-145XR has additional Clear Ice detection which is kind of nice.
If I remember on the SAAB it was certain Temps and visible Moisture we would just manually turn the ice on. In the ERJ you always know when the ICE Protections just turned on because you feel the pressure in your ears
02-14-2009 | 10:20 AM
#73
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From: retired
Our airplanes are great at picking up ice and getting rid of it, but Ice is a very funny thing, it sometimes slowly builds up without being detected, remember AUTOMATION, or ICE DETECTORS, or Stick Pushers, Windsheer Warnings, etc all of these things are there to HELP us, but it is up to the HUMAN PILOT to FLY THE AIRPLANE, because we are the ones who know when our planes are not flying like they should........
Human ingenuity and technology is not more advanced then mother nature and the elements.......
Human ingenuity and technology is not more advanced then mother nature and the elements.......
Well said young man, when you're in actual icing, the hair on the back of your neck should start standing up a little bit. A little fear and respect is good and we should never completely rely on automatiopn for handling known ice.
02-14-2009 | 11:09 AM
#74
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From: FIRE ALPA
I think this is an interesting topic, and lets try and keep it away from Colgan 3407 for right now until we have more details. I'm all up for learning new things, so lets talk about this.
I can say I didn't know much about icing (or tail stalls), other than what I was taught in the books during my flight training. Growing up in the south I never experienced icing until I actually started flying the jet at work. Since then I've gone back and read up on more information, and of course I learn the most while actually experiencing it.
One thing that bothers me about the CRJ is the fact there is no anti-ice on the tail. Bombardier says it's aerodynamically impossible to get icing on the tail, and that may be true to an extent, but I'm not 100% confident in it. I guarantee if you put me in tail icing right now I probably wouldn't know what was going on. I'd really like to know more (have always wanted to) about that sort of icing, what effects it has, how you can tell, and what you need to do about it.
Like I said - interesting topic. I try and learn as much as I can, but this is something I'm not very familiar with at all. I know as much as most people do about wing stalls, but not tail stalls.
I can say I didn't know much about icing (or tail stalls), other than what I was taught in the books during my flight training. Growing up in the south I never experienced icing until I actually started flying the jet at work. Since then I've gone back and read up on more information, and of course I learn the most while actually experiencing it.
One thing that bothers me about the CRJ is the fact there is no anti-ice on the tail. Bombardier says it's aerodynamically impossible to get icing on the tail, and that may be true to an extent, but I'm not 100% confident in it. I guarantee if you put me in tail icing right now I probably wouldn't know what was going on. I'd really like to know more (have always wanted to) about that sort of icing, what effects it has, how you can tell, and what you need to do about it.
Like I said - interesting topic. I try and learn as much as I can, but this is something I'm not very familiar with at all. I know as much as most people do about wing stalls, but not tail stalls.
02-14-2009 | 12:15 PM
#75
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I can guarantee you from personal experience on the CRJ 900 at least, that is NOT true. I have found I'm guessing about 1/4 to 1/2 inch (hard to say just how much for sure from the ground but this is based on the thickness of the ice on the winglets) of ice on the tail during a postflight walkaround. We had no idea there was any ice on our tail prior to my walkaround.
02-14-2009 | 12:26 PM
#76
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NTSB 4pm briefing mentioned that both the pusher and shaker activated. He MIGHT have said it was on AP and the shaker/pusher kicked it off. I can't tell if he meant that is what the system DOES or what this one DID.
02-14-2009 | 01:49 PM
#79
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From: E-170
just thinking about the recovery techniques from a tail stall. its pitching back to reduce the angle of attack on the stabilizer. also reducing the amount of down wash coming off the wing by retracting flaps. it seems like this recovery can very easily set you up for a normal wing stall. has anyone done this in the sim and if so how much altitude did you loose? it sounds like a damned if you do and damned if you dont type of scenario espicially if its during an approach scenario.
02-14-2009 | 02:27 PM
#80
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From: Legacy FO
just thinking about the recovery techniques from a tail stall. its pitching back to reduce the angle of attack on the stabilizer. also reducing the amount of down wash coming off the wing by retracting flaps. it seems like this recovery can very easily set you up for a normal wing stall. has anyone done this in the sim and if so how much altitude did you loose? it sounds like a damned if you do and damned if you dont type of scenario espicially if its during an approach scenario.
I'm not a tailplane stall expert, but, it seems that if you stalled the tailplane and applied the procedure in the NASA film, you shouldn't get yourself into a secondary wing stall. Having enough altitude to recover from a tailplane stall may be the problem (especially on final).
The key is, don't get yourself into a tailplane stall. Use your anti-ice and de-ice systems constantly. If you see a little ice buildup on the window, fuselage, or the wing, you probably have even more ice on the tail.
-Fatty
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