I think you and I are on the same page, but just saying things a little differently...

I think you could muster enough force to control the plane to the point of recovery, but if it caught you off guard and you had ice on the wings ... it might be game over before you even try.

That's a scary story on your end though, glad you made it out safely! Having a runaway trim is NEVER fun! I remember one time they gave us a runaway trim and then failed the main trim, so after about 3-5 seconds of trying to figure out what in the world happened I finally went to the standby trim and it worked like a charm. It's amazing how fast your brain works when it's in overdrive

 

True. The few times I've been given a trim loss/runaway situation in the ATR, I could deal with it. The lightly loaded EMB-135 at TO thrust would of had no problem either going vertical or stalling/shaker-pusher first and even at 6'4" and 215 pounds, I would have never been strong enough to prevent it without a power reduction............the pitch force necessary WAS that strong.

Also remember the aircraft will trim itself with the autopilot on, but when off (such as after disconnect by the stick shaker), it's up to the pilot to trim. In talking to some SF3 drivers, that aircraft can apparently be overpowered by the pilot, but in my 7500 hours in the EMB, I know that at a low trimmed airspeed and a light aircraft at max thrust, it is unlikely, if not impossible.

I'd be curious as to what foward stick pressure would be required to keep a lightly loaded Q400 trimmed to 135 knots and full power from either stalling or prevent the pusher from activating. I'll bet it's surprisingly high.

 

A Cessna 172 trimmed all the way down to 65kts would require all your power to keep it level if you added the power in all the way. Once an aircraft is trimmed it's trimmed and you aint gonna stop it from running off unless you manage your power.

In this situation it's not about overpowering trim. If it's trimmed at 135 that's where it's going to fly. If you're going to floor it with the levers then you need to re-trim to get away from that setting and not just try to overpower it.

 

Does the Q400 not trim for flap settings even with the AP off? Isn't pressure on the stick all artificial in a Q400?

 

The Q400 does autotrim when going from flaps 15 to 35; it does not do so for other increments. The autotrim when the autopilot is on is not the best. Most of us have gotten in the habit of having both hands on the yoke at autopilot disconnect because we often don't know what to expect. It is never extreme difference though, just irritating.

The glideslope will not capture until after the localizer has captured. Probably the better way of doing it but it does mean we have to hand fly approaches a little more often when we are given bad vectors.

The plane does have a lot of power for a turboprop and would imagine it would be a lot of work when adding power and trimmed at 135 kts. It is also very rudder intensive when adding or reducing power. I am not sure how I would react but would have it in the back of my mind the non-coordination in a stall thing when adding power. You might say I just need better stick and rudder skills but with the Q400 it is difficult to feel coordination and there isn't control feel in the rudder. You have to pay a great deal attention to the inclinometer to keep the plane coordinated during power changes.

I have had the stick shaker go off climbing through 19,000 at 230 kts indicated towards the end of the day at night. The system was malfunctioning, but it was very disorienting when I wasn't geared for what was coming. It took us a little too much time to figure out what was going on. If it had been an actual stall we would have been in trouble.

I do not want to guess on the cause of the accident. Only want to chime in from my experience as it might shed a little light on what is being put forth so far. Also, if it did happen as some are speculating, I could see from my experience with the plane how easy it would be to react the way some are thinking the crew might have reacted.

 

I hesitated to chime in on this thread, but I needed to vent a little.

I flew that particular airplane 6 times, according to my logbook. I'm a former Colgan F/O and it very well could have been me that night instead of Rebecca. Maybe God spared me for a reason.

 

What you are describing is an elevator trim stall. The 172 has a conventional tail that is in the propwash (and contributes to the pitch-up moment you mentioned), but one of the characteristics of the T-tail design
is that it gets the horizontal stabs and elevators out of of it.

 

Very true. My point wasn't to be that detailed it was more along the lines of aircraft size doesn't matter. To muscle any aircraft from a trimmed speed is going to be extremely hard if not impossible.

 

I would like to see more info. from the FDR/NTSB re: the speeds they were at while configuring. If you have the power @ flight idle in the Dash (Q200) and drop the gear @ 135, extend flaps 15 after 3 Green/Amber Door Advisory lights out, you'll get a stick shaker approximately 8-10 seconds after moving the flap handle.

1.) What speed were they at when LDG GEAR Extended?
2.) What was their Torque Setting at the time?